Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1041
12-09-2010, 04:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
I've read it the other way around. Marine Chapters only adhere to Imperial authority in the loosest of ways.
The whole Astartes/Inquisition relationship (as well as who really has the power) is a tricky one. Technically both are "above" standard Imperial law, and the Inquisition theoretically claims total authority to enact the will of the Emperor, but then the Astartes are also the living embodiment of the Emperor's will and were decreed their own organization by the Emperor himself when he first made them...

Yeah, there was a recent thread on the B&C where they literally argued in circles about it because both sides could cite numerous canon sources supporting their respective views (conflicting canon? Where have we seen THAT before? ), and eventually a mod had to lock it down because it was spinning around so fast the centrifugal force threatened to overheat and break the forum. :p


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenstein View Post
You seem to be proceeding at an appropriate speed for Space Marines. They take a lot of work.

My rank and file Guardsmen are more of a 'good enough' job.
I love that picture so, so much.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
Have any of you actually tried out stuff like Army Painter? I'd probably not consider it for high value models like Marines or Sisters, but it might be suitable for Guardsmen. Sadly I've never tried it so far, but maybe one of you has experience?
They sell some of the dipping cans at my local game store. Some of the guys use it for their armies, and it's "good enough" for them, but I won't touch it for the standard I paint my Marines to. That, and my color scheme is too complex to use it anyway.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1042
12-09-2010, 07:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allerka View Post
The whole Astartes/Inquisition relationship (as well as who really has the power) is a tricky one. Technically both are "above" standard Imperial law, and the Inquisition theoretically claims total authority to enact the will of the Emperor, but then the Astartes are also the living embodiment of the Emperor's will and were decreed their own organization by the Emperor himself when he first made them...

Yeah, there was a recent thread on the B&C where they literally argued in circles about it because both sides could cite numerous canon sources supporting their respective views (conflicting canon? Where have we seen THAT before? ), and eventually a mod had to lock it down because it was spinning around so fast the centrifugal force threatened to overheat and break the forum. :p
I think such an ambiguous delineation of power and authority is intentional in both an in-universe and a game perspective.

From the game perspective it provides a reason for the Sisters and Imperial Guard to fight the Space Marines. It also serves to mirror the foggy assignment of powers between the Church, Kings, and Crusading Orders of Medieval Europe.

From an in-universe perspective it serves as an internal check on the authority of the Inquisition and the Astares (and other groups that may be at work here). The 'system' by which the Imperium 'operates', and I use those words quite loosely, has such ambiguous safeguards built into it to prevent another Horus Heresy or similar calamity.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1043
12-10-2010, 06:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allerka View Post
but then the Astartes are also the living embodiment of the Emperor's will and were decreed their own organization by the Emperor himself when he first made them...
All too true - but it seems that a lot of Inquisitors don't particularly care.

Actually, wasn't there a short official story snippet for the Inquisitor RPG where they've had some top Inquisitors actively prevent the Emperor's rebirth in the belief that the Imperium needs him more where he is right now (Astronomicon, figurehead, etc)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allerka View Post
They sell some of the dipping cans at my local game store. Some of the guys use it for their armies, and it's "good enough" for them, but I won't touch it for the standard I paint my Marines to. That, and my color scheme is too complex to use it anyway.
Aye, I'd only consider it for "rank and file" troops myself ... well, if I ever get around to obtain some Guardsmen, anyways. I've got some fluff left over from a cover identity my Dark Heresy assassin used, but the only other place where I toyed with this idea so far has been Dawn of War I.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenstein View Post
From an in-universe perspective it serves as an internal check on the authority of the Inquisition and the Astares (and other groups that may be at work here). The 'system' by which the Imperium 'operates', and I use those words quite loosely, has such ambiguous safeguards built into it to prevent another Horus Heresy or similar calamity.
Indeed, the idea of "Divided We Stand" even has its own article in the Dark Heresy rulebook's section of Imperium background.

It also reminds me strongly of how the pre-Fel dynasty Galactic Empire worked in Star Wars, with numerous security organizations such as Imperial Intelligence and the Imperial Security Bureau being political rivals and fighting each other. As the wiki puts it: "Palpatine allowed these organizations and their leaders to build up power bases of their own. He encouraged this system, often giving overlapping responsibilities. This made administration of the Empire less efficient, but benefited Palpatine by ensuring that he continued to be the source of all political power in the Empire."

The idea of a sovereign playing off his subjects against each other seems to be pretty common in sci-fi, as it so nicely mirrors an intrigueing system that happened in the real world, as Raven already pointed out. I also remember it from Dune, another classic piece of sci-fi literature & cinema.

Of course the "Corpse-God" in 40k isn't really alive anymore, so the comparison may seem a bit far-fetched at first, but he set up the basics himself before he perished at the traitorous hands of Horus. His minions merely took it to new levels of extremes, all vying for power and influence without being held in check by the guiding hand of the Emperor.

And that's why there is no real conclusion to the heated discussion that Allerka mentioned - in a way, both parties have it right, as responsibilities, freedoms and authority of several Imperial organizations are indeed overlapping. The Astartes are independent, yet by their very definition of being an Imperial force supposed to stand ready when called upon and allow purity screenings to be conducted. Often enough, one of the involved organizations either demands too much or simply acts too arrogant, and if the other's pride is insulted, bloodshed often follows as punitive expeditions pit one Imperial force against the other, the size of this conflict being entirely dependent on the prestige and influence of the warring commanders...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1044
12-10-2010, 08:40 AM
Well the Inquisition didn't come about until well after the Horus Hersey. However there were institutions like the Adeptus Mechanicus that existed outside Imperial Law even during the Heresy.

From what I can tell the Astares, the Inquisition, the Ecclesiarchy, the Adeptus Mechanicus, and the Munitiotorium are more or less outside or above Imperial Law. The Munitiotorium seems to be the least extra-legal organization, but certainly has on a few occasions gone above normal Imperial Law with no consequences.

The system was probably designed to keep any one faction from becoming too powerful and presenting a threat to the High Lords of Terra and Imperial Law. By letting these groups build their power bases they will do their jobs (usually) and keep each other in check to prevent one from becoming too powerful and overthrowing the Imperium.

This system broke down somewhat by the Age of Apostasy, but the reforms instituted afterward and the size of the Imperium seems to have made such a repeat of that crisis an impossibility.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1045
12-10-2010, 09:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenstein View Post
Well the Inquisition didn't come about until well after the Horus Hersey.
I seem to recall a single official reference about the Inquisition having been around earlier - might have even been the same one that mentioned the talks about preventing the Emperor's rebirth. It could also be these were just the people that came to form the Inquisition, but they had "inquisition'ish" influence.

Ah, found it: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Inqu...he_Inquisition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenstein View Post
From what I can tell the Astares, the Inquisition, the Ecclesiarchy, the Adeptus Mechanicus, and the Munitiotorium are more or less outside or above Imperial Law.
More or less, yeah. I recall stuff like Ministorum officials having a special right to a trial before getting sentenced by the Arbites, but of course this is very theoretical. It's quite easy for influential members of such powerful organization to elude investigation, surely also thanks to the massive red tape that would get kicked loose when moving against such individuals (Dark Heresy mentioned a case where some suspected official had long died of old age by the time that Imperial bureaucracy finally gave green light to have him arrested). And this is not to mention shady deals between the different factions.

For example, there was some old fluff about the Sisters' Purity Control squads even checking on the Inquisition, but their own Canonesses often relay messages of their arrival to the destination facility, which often results in the targeted Inquisitor simply being "elsewhere" (Inquisitors on active assignments are exempted by default) and the team having to leave empty-handed. It's one of the dirty deals the Sisterhood struck as part of the Convocation of Nephilim, causing the higher-ups to restrain their own troops ... which is why Canonesses in the fluff are often sickened by Imperial politics, yet they can't do anything about it and have to keep playing the game to keep their Order safe from retaliation.

A quote from Daemonifuge:
Celestian: "But Mylady! What of Sister Ephrael? What of the promises that she would be given a fair trial?"
Canoness Ramirez: "The matter ... the matter is out of our hands. We must look to saving ourselves now. With faith, there must also sometimes come sacrifice."

By the way - Raven, somehow I get the feeling you'd make a good Ysanne Isard.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1046
12-10-2010, 01:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
By the way - Raven, somehow I get the feeling you'd make a good Ysanne Isard.
My personal heroes are Doctor Doom, Gaius Julius Caesar, Napoleon Bonaparte, and Princess Azula.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1047
12-10-2010, 01:12 PM
I've been playing Dark Eldar since pretty much they were first released. How do you feel about the new ones?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1048
12-10-2010, 01:19 PM
iS IT TRUE THEY LIMITED THE FACTIONS IN THE NEW 40K MMO CONCEPT?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1049
12-10-2010, 02:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenstein View Post
My personal heroes are Doctor Doom, Gaius Julius Caesar, Napoleon Bonaparte, and Princess Azula.
I approve of Caesar and Napoleon. I've had to read about Azula first, but she sounds quite cool, too. In fact, quite similar to Isard. :p

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roach View Post
iS IT TRUE THEY LIMITED THE FACTIONS IN THE NEW 40K MMO CONCEPT?
*shivers* I maintain that a 40k MMO should have used the Necromunda background. Or maybe the Imperial Guard. But Marines? I can already already see bunnyhopping Astartes yelling "lololol" in zone chat.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1050
12-10-2010, 04:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
*shivers* I maintain that a 40k MMO should have used the Necromunda background. Or maybe the Imperial Guard. But Marines? I can already already see bunnyhopping Astartes yelling "lololol" in zone chat.
How I would do a 40k MMO...

Starting factions will be the Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Orks, Chaos, Eldar, Sisters of Battle, and Tau. You choose your faction, gender in some cases, and customize your character choosing uniform colors, a few accessories, and then it dumps you into the tutorial. You start as an entrant of the respective factions. Space Marines start as a Scout, Imperial Guardsmen as a fresh recruit, etc.

There is no specific 'class' per se. Instead as you level up you pick new skills as as you reach a certain level or complete mission you get access to choose new skill trees and abilities. In this way, you could start as a lowly Guardsman and work your way up to a Captain or Commissar or perhaps even an Inquisitor or Psyker, to use the Guard as an example.

Among those abilities would be adding additional soldiers to your 'squad'. These soldiers are added either as standard leveling up bonuses (such as reach level 5 and get another squad member) or as skill purchases. A large part of the game balance will be these additional squad members. Imperial Guardsmen for example will not individually be able to stand up to a Space Marine, but an Imperial Guard PC will probably also have a good number of pet Imperial Guard squad members he can command. Depending on your level and faction, you can potentially add more soldiers to your command.

And as an added perk this mechanic will improve the relation of the game to the boardgame source.
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