Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 791
03-31-2011, 07:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taitos
We the release of the d'kyr and the possiblility of a purely vulcan ship crew any one have or had any ideas on possible uniforms for a Vulcan Science ship crew?
I'd be very grateful for any ideas peeps have.
Well, my all Vulcan crew uses the T'Pol jumpsuit for females and the All Good Things uniform for males in warm gray and divisional colors with white trim. It's completely improvised though and has no basis in canon. Here's a screen shot.

Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 792
03-31-2011, 07:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarbarossaRotbart
Lt. Shaw was the JAG officer for Starbase 11, so her assigment patch would be that of Starbase 11.

And is made from the same fabric as thze other dress uniforms.

That changes only one thing: that a Lieutenant wears the same dress uniform as a Lieutenant Commander but he wears his assigment patch instead of his decorations. So Dickerson's uniform is still a costume error, or he was really a Leitenant Commander, then it would have been a script error.

The other officers in the court martial were captains and not commodores. And it would be illogical that there were four commodore present on a simple Starbase. The reason for Commodore Mendez wearing a captain's dress uniform is a simple costume error which can be explained that they had created only a commodore's dress uniform in red, but a green one was needed, so they simply reused the one worn by one of the two captains of the command division.
It's a starbase badge, not a mission patch. It is worn on standard uniforms by all Starbase 11 personnel. And no mission patches ever seen during the series are that big. They are a combination of tiny patches and pins representing the various honors the officers have received, not simple badges.

Seeing two Lieutenants wearing the same uniform with gold piping makes it pretty clear that it is not a mistake.

And the fact that no other Commodore wears Stone's version again during the entire series? Seems to me more likely that Stone's was a special case uniform and every other Commodore's uniform seen were not mistakes.

It is obvious that you are not going to accept anything except what is written in whatever websites you are reading. I did the actual research. I watched the episodes myself and further confirmed my results with the book Star Trek: The Original Series by Paula M. Block and Terry J. Erdman. I didn't depend on something someone else wrote on the interwebs. I am content that I am right and you are wrong. If you don't like my choices feel free to ignore them. I will argue about these items with you no longer.


Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 793
03-31-2011, 08:06 PM
Lord Blackavaar,

Thank you for the new TOS and EMH guides. I literally spent hours playing around with my character's costumes last night. Using your guides to give her the canon costumes, but also making a couple minor variants.

This particular character (Danica Pym) has now used-up all the costumes slots I've purchased. I think I counted that she's got 41 uniforms... So many that the list goes top to bottom, I want to get more, but I'm worried they won't scroll and I won't be able to change into them on the fly. Heh. I guess I'll find out once the Tax Day Sale comes 'round and I buy some more slots...

I digress, but the point I'm trying to make is that while I was adding I had to take away a couple of old variants to make room... And while I was reviewing her existing costumes I noticed her DS9 and Voyager Canon costumes were colored wrong. After consulting your guides it seems the undershirt gray color got swapped with the divisional "top-quarter/shoulder" color. An easy enough fix, but was that changed by the game at some point?

I sure wish there was a way I could organize my costume list order... At least Cryptic could make them ordered alphanumerically. That would be cool...

Anyway, thanks again!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 794
03-31-2011, 08:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatricianVetinari
Lord Blackavaar,

Thank you for the new TOS and EMH guides. I literally spent hours playing around with my character's costumes last night. Using your guides to give her the canon costumes, but also making a couple minor variants.

This particular character (Danica Pym) has now used-up all the costumes slots I've purchased. I think I counted that she's got 41 uniforms... So many that the list goes top to bottom, I want to get more, but I'm worried they won't scroll and I won't be able to change into them on the fly. Heh. I guess I'll find out once the Tax Day Sale comes 'round and I buy some more slots...

I digress, but the point I'm trying to make is that while I was adding I had to take away a couple of old variants to make room... And while I was reviewing her existing costumes I noticed her DS9 and Voyager Canon costumes were colored wrong. After consulting your guides it seems the undershirt gray color got swapped with the divisional "top-quarter/shoulder" color. An easy enough fix, but was that changed by the game at some point?

I sure wish there was a way I could organize my costume list order... At least Cryptic could make them ordered alphanumerically. That would be cool...

Anyway, thanks again!
Yes, when the devs updated the uniforms they realigned the DS9 uniform colors to coincide with the TNG Film uniform colors, even though it makes more sense that the colors would affect the proper areas when changing between the two uniforms. I noted this when I updated the guides.

And yes, I too wish that drag and drop tech was added to both costume slots and character slots (on the selection screen). It would make it much easier to keep things organized. As it is I currently have to save and reload previous costumes to keep them in the order I like. And when switching characters I have to hop on and off repeatedly to keep them organized by rank and faction whenever I play different characters.

I figure they'll eventually get to these little QoL improvements. Right now they have bigger fish to fry.

And as always you are very welcome.


Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 795
04-01-2011, 02:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackavaar View Post
It's a starbase badge, not a mission patch. It is worn on standard uniforms by all Starbase 11 personnel. And no mission patches ever seen during the series are that big. They are a combination of tiny patches and pins representing the various honors the officers have received, not simple badges.
A starbase ptach is an assignment patch, because the person who wears that patch is assigned to that particular starbase!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackavaar View Post
Seeing two Lieutenants wearing the same uniform with gold piping makes it pretty clear that it is not a mistake.
The piping is not the problem! Dickerson's decorations are, because with them he cannot be distinguished from a Lieutenant Commander like Scotty and Bones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackavaar View Post
And the fact that no other Commodore wears Stone's version again during the entire series? Seems to me more likely that Stone's was a special case uniform and every other Commodore's uniform seen were not mistakes.

The reason for that is quite, simple. Of all six commodores (Stone, Mendez, Barstow, Decker, Stocker, Wesley) we saw in TOS only the first two wore dress uniforms and in Mendez case is was a simple mistake because thye do not had the correct green dress uniform, ao they simply reused one of the two other green dress uniforms with captain insignia and hoped that the missing piping would not be noticed because the piping is very hard to see on the green background.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackavaar View Post
It is obvious that you are not going to accept anything except what is written in whatever websites you are reading. I did the actual research. I watched the episodes myself and further confirmed my results with the book Star Trek: The Original Series by Paula M. Block and Terry J. Erdman. I didn't depend on something someone else wrote on the interwebs. I am content that I am right and you are wrong. If you don't like my choices feel free to ignore them. I will argue about these items with you no longer.
The only website I'm reading is memory Alpha and they have a very strict canon policy, so a book written by two Trek editors is not considered canon. BTW if they refer to characters as commodore, who were introduced as captain in that particular episode (Captain Krasnovsky, Captain Chandra), then I really do not want to know how many other errors they made. BTW even a book written by production staffers like the Star Trek Encyclopedia is full of mistakes like the TWOK rank insignia.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 796
04-01-2011, 02:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarbarossaRotbart
A starbase ptach is an assignment patch, because the person who wears that patch is assigned to that particular starbase!

The piping is not the problem! Dickerson's decorations are, because with them he cannot be distinguished from a Lieutenant Commander like Scotty and Bones.


The reason for that is quite, simple. Of all six commodores (Stone, Mendez, Barstow, Decker, Stocker, Wesley) we saw in TOS only the first two wore dress uniforms and in Mendez case is was a simple mistake because thye do not had the correct green dress uniform, ao they simply reused one of the two other green dress uniforms with captain insignia and hoped that the missing piping would not be noticed because the piping is very hard to see on the green background.

The only website I'm reading is memory Alpha and they have a very strict canon policy, so a book written by two Trek editors is not considered canon. BTW if they refer to characters as commodore, who were introduced as captain in that particular episode (Captain Krasnovsky, Captain Chandra), then I really do not want to know how many other errors they made. BTW even a book written by production staffers like the Star Trek Encyclopedia is full of mistakes like the TWOK rank insignia.
As far as the dress uniforms go, it looks to me like they're set up as Junior Officer (Ens-LtCdr.)/Senior Officer (Cdr)/Command Officer (Capt+).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 797
04-01-2011, 02:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
As far as the dress uniforms go, it looks to me like they're set up as Junior Officer (Ens-LtCdr.)/Senior Officer (Cdr)/Command Officer (Capt+).
That was the rank insignia policy during the two pilots, and even during the first season of TOS they had a similiar policy (Ensign/crewmen, Lieutenant J.G., Lietenant, Department Head, First Officer, Captain, Commodore), because Spock was referred to as Lietenant Commander during the first season but wore the rank insignia of a full Commander.
If you consider Dickerson's uniform as a costume error, which would not be so out of place considering that the third season was very weak and had a very smal budget. BTW Scotty only wore in that seaon a kilt to his dress uniform.
I think that the TOS dress uniform should be:
- Ensign to Lieutenant Commander, with the Lieutenant Commander wearing no rank insignia and no assignment patch but his decorations instead.
- Commander
- Captain
- Commodore (only seen once)
- Admiral (not seen in the show)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 798
04-01-2011, 03:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarbarossaRotbart
That was the rank insignia policy during the two pilots, and even during the first season of TOS they had a similiar policy (Ensign/crewmen, Lieutenant J.G., Lietenant, Department Head, First Officer, Captain, Commodore), because Spock was referred to as Lietenant Commander during the first season but wore the rank insignia of a full Commander.
If you consider Dickerson's uniform as a costume error, which would not be so out of place considering that the third season was very weak and had a very smal budget. BTW Scotty only wore in that seaon a kilt to his dress uniform.
I think that the TOS dress uniform should be:
- Ensign to Lieutenant Commander, with the Lieutenant Commander wearing no rank insignia and no assignment patch but his decorations instead.
- Commander
- Captain
- Commodore (only seen once)
- Admiral (not seen in the show)
That Spock might be called Lt. Commander but be wearing the braid of a full Commander might be explained by the military tradition of "brevetting" and officer to a higher rank during a time of service (such as wartime). In essence, he would be a Commander in all ways until his service concludes, and then revert ot his original rank. For example, George S. Patton was a Captain during WW I, but was brevetted to Colonel, with all the responsibility and authority that entailed. When the war ended, he reverted to Captain.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 799
04-01-2011, 04:00 AM
I know, but that's a modern explanation for Spock's rank and rank insignia during the first season and it does not explain the rank insignia of the first two pilots. In "The Cage" all officer wore the same rank insignia (a single stripe), a chief wore a 'hollow stripe' and all crewmen wore nothing. With "Where No Man Has Gone Before" the captain gained a second stripe as rank insignia.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 800
04-01-2011, 10:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarbarossaRotbart
A starbase ptach is an assignment patch, because the person who wears that patch is assigned to that particular starbase!

The piping is not the problem! Dickerson's decorations are, because with them he cannot be distinguished from a Lieutenant Commander like Scotty and Bones.

The reason for that is quite, simple. Of all six commodores (Stone, Mendez, Barstow, Decker, Stocker, Wesley) we saw in TOS only the first two wore dress uniforms and in Mendez case is was a simple mistake because thye do not had the correct green dress uniform, ao they simply reused one of the two other green dress uniforms with captain insignia and hoped that the missing piping would not be noticed because the piping is very hard to see on the green background.

The only website I'm reading is memory Alpha and they have a very strict canon policy, so a book written by two Trek editors is not considered canon. BTW if they refer to characters as commodore, who were introduced as captain in that particular episode (Captain Krasnovsky, Captain Chandra), then I really do not want to know how many other errors they made. BTW even a book written by production staffers like the Star Trek Encyclopedia is full of mistakes like the TWOK rank insignia.
No, a starbase BADGE is not an assignment patch. It is worn in place of assignment patches on officers who have not achieved any.

And Dickerson was also Chief of Security, which could account for his mission patches. Or did you not think of that?

Further confirmation that the Captain Dress Uniform was also proper canon for Commodores via Memory Alpha, Commodore Robert April. True it's from the Animated Series, but Memory Alpha itself lists it.

Memory Alpha is also still a wiki that can be edited and re-edited by anyone with an account, while a hardback book cannot. And the book doesn't say that those officers were Captains or Commodores, btw. That was my own mistake and I am willing to admit that one.

That's it. I'm done arguing. It's a guide, not the end all be all and not restricted by or made to adhere to anyone's definition of canon. I create and designate costume parts as best I can with the materials and colors I have available. In some cases there is not much else I can do. Since there is no alternate version of a Commodore Dress Uniform or a Lieutenant Dress Uniform, I have designated the ones we have as being appropriate to be worn as such since they can be seen being worn as such in the series. Deal with it and move on. Stop pestering.

Thank you.


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