Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 821
04-02-2011, 06:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarbarossaRotbart
As far as I know Junior Officers are the collective name for all ensigns, lieutenant j.g. and lieutenants. Senior officers are leiutenant commander, commander, captain and commodore (yes, a commodore is not a flag officer!).
Actually, I must correct myself. I remember why I made that distinction now. I just checked and the young officer that asks Admiral Kirk about a ceremony for their arrival at the beginning of TSFS is wearing a Lieutenant Junior Grade pin on his shoulder. "Mister" Saavik can be seen wearing the same pin here. Neither were cadets and Saavik was simply promoted to full Lieutenant after Wrath of Khan.

I also checked the Security Officers again. You were right. They are indeed a very dark green. But they are darker than those of the security officers seen later. Also, they appear to be wearing large red boots with steel toes. These notations will be added when the guides are updated.

By the time of TFF however those collars and boots were obviously changed and the leather football helmets and hockey padding was removed entirely.


Quote:
Are you sure that those a cadets? And not enlisted and petty officers?
Considering that one young man playing a video game can be seen wearing a Petty Officer second class pin on his sleeve stripe, while another young woman petting tribbles can be seen wearing no pin at all, I'm pretty sure. It appears that cadets and enlisted wear the same uniforms to me.

This, of course, is contradicted later in the TNG series, which appears to use the divisional colors to show the particular career track the cadets are on.

See? You've got me looking more closely now.

Edit: Oh, and the reason I concluded that red is specific to Command Training is because another Lieutenant Junior Grade can be seen wearing Sciences and Communications gray when he is forced into a closet by Uhura at phaser point.


Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 822
04-02-2011, 07:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarbarossaRotbart
As far as I know Junior Officers are the collective name for all ensigns, lieutenant j.g. and lieutenants. Senior officers are leiutenant commander, commander, captain and commodore (yes, a commodore is not a flag officer!). Flag officers are rear admiral, vice admiral, admiral and fleet admiral.
Commodore is a flag rank. It's the equivalent of a one star (Brigadier) General. The question is slightly confused by the US Navy's use of the Rank as a position AND a rank, as well as the change to "Lower Half."

That said, your assessment is more or less correct. Junior Officers would be any officer from Ensign to Lt. Commander (naval tradition says a Lt. Commander is a Lieutenant with Commander's authority). Senior Officers would be Commanders and Captains (and in practice, Department Heads would be considered "Senior Officers" regardless of actual rank). Flag Officers are any officers allowed to have their own flag - all the ranks of the Admiralty, from Commodore (Rear Admiral Lower Half in the US) to Admiral.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 823
04-02-2011, 08:06 PM
Incidentally, here's a screenshot I'm using for one of the Off Duty guides I'm working on now. Do you recognize it?

Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 824
04-02-2011, 10:40 PM
Glad to see the way this drawn-out discussion ended up going -- you two are both gentlemen and class acts.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 825
04-03-2011, 01:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackavaar View Post
Considering that one young man playing a video game can be seen wearing a Petty Officer second class pin on his sleeve stripe, while another young woman petting tribbles can be seen wearing no pin at all, I'm pretty sure. It appears that cadets and enlisted wear the same uniforms to me.
I've looked again. There were three characters wearing the enlisted jumpsuit in that bar. Of the first one we cannot see his rank insignia, so he could be anything from crewman to master chief, other two both wear petty officer rank insignia, so none of them is a trainee or cadet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackavaar View Post
Edit: Oh, and the reason I concluded that red is specific to Command Training is because another Lieutenant Junior Grade can be seen wearing Sciences and Communications gray when he is forced into a closet by Uhura at phaser point.
A lieutenant j.g. is not a cadet. BTW most officers and enlisted on the Enterprise in TWOK wore red straps. And according to Flechter's note they are cadets and trainees. 'Mister Adventure' in TSFS has already graduated, so it is only natural that he wears the color of his department.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Commodore is a flag rank. It's the equivalent of a one star (Brigadier) General. The question is slightly confused by the US Navy's use of the Rank as a position AND a rank, as well as the change to "Lower Half."
A commodore is equal to a brigadier (who is not a general) and a brigadier general (who is a general).The use of raer admiral, lower half in the US Navy comes from the fact that a commodore is not a flag officer. Until 1899 the US Navy had no admirals. Commodores and flag officers were captains in a temporary position. In 1899 all commodores were promoted to rear admiral (a two star admiral). But the lower half of the rear admirals on the seniority list received the same pay as a brigadier general in the Army. In 1943 rank of commodore has been reactivated, but after 1947 no officer was promoted to that rank and in 1950 the last commodores were promoted to rear admiral. In 1982 the 1 star admiral rank of commodore admiral was created, only to be renamed into commodore and later in rear admiral, lower half, because commodore was used as a position since 1950. Since then the rear admiral, lower half exists as a rank with an insignia of its own.
BTW in the Royal Navy commodore became a substantive rank in 1996. Until then it was just an appointment for a captain, who returned to his former rank after his time as commodore was up.
BTW a commodore never flew his own flag but only a pennant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
That said, your assessment is more or less correct. Junior Officers would be any officer from Ensign to Lt. Commander (naval tradition says a Lt. Commander is a Lieutenant with Commander's authority). Senior Officers would be Commanders and Captains (and in practice, Department Heads would be considered "Senior Officers" regardless of actual rank). Flag Officers are any officers allowed to have their own flag - all the ranks of the Admiralty, from Commodore (Rear Admiral Lower Half in the US) to Admiral.
The Lieutenant Commander is only a junior officer in the US Navy in most other Navys they belong to the senior officers. The same applies to the commodore.

BTW it would be much better if cryptic renames the rear admiral lower half into commodore, because that rank fits much better into the universe than a modern, US-only construct with no real naval tradition.

BTW production nates from TNG show us that the rank of commodore did not exist during TNG and that the rear admiral with two groups gold framed bars of two pips each was the lowest admiral rank. It makes sense, because Picard commanding the blockade fleet had the position of commodore (but not the title or rank) during the Klingon Civil War. And Sisko was also a Commodore in all but name as commander of the allied fleet during Operation Return.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 826
04-03-2011, 03:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarbarossaRotbart
BTW it would be much better if cryptic renames the rear admiral lower half into commodore, because that rank fits much better into the universe than a modern, US-only construct with no real naval tradition
When Season Two was still in testing, and the Rear Admiral Lower Half was simply Rear Admiral Cryptic told us the rank was to be renamed Rear Admiral Lower, and the new rank for the next five levels was to be called Rear Admiral Upper Half. At the time, many a forum goer argued for Cryptic to rename Rear Admiral as Commodore and have the new rank be called Rear Admiral so as to avoid confusion over these two ranks. Many cited the use of the rank of Commodore as a Flag Officer in the Original Series as evidence the rank had been used before and that it could be used again (this also proves that the rank of Commodore is a Flag Officer and not a Senior Officer when used in Star Trek regardless of what you have said, but that's another topic). Cryptic did not listen then, they will not listen to this argument now.

Also, while from an in-universe perspective it might make sense for the rank of Commodore to be used instead of Rear Admiral Lower Half due to traditions of the planet Earth as a whole, the point falls apart in a production stand-point. Star Trek is an American made franchise, with most of it's writers, costume designers, editors and producers being American citizens and it's target audience also being American citizens. As such, it is written so that it's military and government structure is based on the American military and government. This is done for two reasons, one being it's what the writers, costume designers, etc. know and two being that it's what it's target audiences will find familiar. It cuts out much of the exposition of explaining that the rank of Royal Guard is equivalent to Lieutenant Commander and that Honorary Knight is the same as Captain when simply using these ranks will give the audience an intuitive cue as to who reports to who and it saves the writers having to keep cross-checking with one another to make sure they keep the rank structure intact.

Disclaimer: Both ranks of Royal Guard and Honorary Knight were completely made up for illustrative purposes, and any similarity (if any actually exists) in name or actual position to any nation's military is purely coincidental.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 827
04-03-2011, 05:52 AM
Two things:
1. They should listen to the fans.
2. Star Trek may be an American show, but I've read that the starfleet ranks were designed after the british system and not the americansystem. (dsadly, I cannot remember where I read it.)

If a commodore is a flag officer or a senior officer does not really matter. In TOS, ENT and the movies a commodore wore the same type of uniform as an admiral. In TNG, DS9 and VOY that rank did not exist, as production nates cleraly show that the lowest admiral rank was the 2 star rear admiral. And it makes sense if you look at the rank insignia.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 828
04-03-2011, 09:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarbarossaRotbart
I've looked again. There were three characters wearing the enlisted jumpsuit in that bar. Of the first one we cannot see his rank insignia, so he could be anything from crewman to master chief, other two both wear petty officer rank insignia, so none of them is a trainee or cadet.
Are you sure you are looking at the rank pin (on the colored sleeve stripe) and not the button clasp above? Look more closely at the Petty Officer playing the video game.

Quote:
A lieutenant j.g. is not a cadet. BTW most officers and enlisted on the Enterprise in TWOK wore red straps. And according to Flechter's note they are cadets and trainees. 'Mister Adventure' in TSFS has already graduated, so it is only natural that he wears the color of his department.
I already said that they were not cadets. And most? Are you sure? In my review just yesterday I only saw two red collars in both WoK and SFS, both were Lieutenant Junior Grade, which confirms that they were not cadets but Junior Officers.

Now please, enough of this. Any further notes you have should be PMed directly to me and I will take them into consideration. Players do not visit this thread to read long winded discussions. They visit it to see new costume guides.


--------------------------------

Three new Off Duty guides will be added soon. In addition I am also working on Section 31 guides for both the TNG and DS9 uniforms.

Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 829
04-03-2011, 03:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackavaar View Post
In order to help the community get that canon look I developed this guide. I hope you find it useful. Enjoy!

Index:
The Canon Uniforms have been moved to their own page in order to make room for future additions. Click on the Canon Uniforms link in the Index above to go to that page.

Notice that I've labeled these as per the usual positions the colors were used to designate in the shows and movies, not by the generalized Tactical, Engineering and Science careers they are used to designate in game.

Note: Due to limited color choices and lack of certain details, these uniforms may not appear perfectly accurate with canon. However, within the constraints of the game, they are as close as you can possibly get. All uniforms have been tested in various lighting environments in the game in order to insure the most accurate color choices possible.

For those that crave more accuracy, I use a Dell E198WFP Monitor with the Color preset Normal. My Color Profile is sRGB IEC61966-2.1. These are the standard settings for most PCs and Monitors.

Enjoy!
This is a fun guide.

I might use it as a guide for some of my characters.

Out of curiosity, do you think you could try making some 25th Century Dress Uniform Variants?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 830
04-03-2011, 09:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamato
This is a fun guide.

I might use it as a guide for some of my characters.

Out of curiosity, do you think you could try making some 25th Century Dress Uniform Variants?
I could if we had any Dress Uniforms for the 25th Century. Currently the closest we have is the Veteran Uniform or is that what you meant?

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