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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
04-19-2010, 07:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forjo View Post
I don't understand how you guys are so open to make such massive design changes as you are doing with Klingon content, diplomacy, etc. and you refuse to consider (or, rehash, as you put it) our requests for this. Or to even let us test it on Tribble.

A bit of an inconsistency I'd say.

-Forjo
No, it's simply that this forum is dedicated to identifying and discussing Gameplay Bugs, as the name suggests. A discussion of different game mechanics should go to another forum. This is not the place to discuss them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
04-19-2010, 07:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GM_Litana
No, it's simply that this forum is dedicated to identifying and discussing Gameplay Bugs, as the name suggests. A discussion of different game mechanics should go to another forum. This is not the place to discuss them.
Well, I consider this mission and the others canted like it a massive 'bug', though it's at the design level rather than code.

The 2.5D setup is fine as long as the game makes it somewhat natural. Since our available movement and orientation is normalized against the plane of horizontal travel, maps and NPC placements should too. Missions like this just make travel in the 2.5D control scheme annoying and call attention to its limitations.

I'm not asking that the full movement sphere be unlocked (though the current angular limit makes certain situations very wonky), but area design needs to be consistent with gameplay design. Limiting our ability to maneuver along Z and then making us follow paths that push the edge of that available movement just to get where we need to go is just awful design.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
04-19-2010, 07:58 PM
i would be happy with 89 degrees, or atleast 80.. right now if someone is kinda below or above you, you cannot get them inside cannons firing arc's.... in the phi system and the other system in the same patrol mission that you cant fly down in either i spent an absurd amount of time only being able to hit targets with my turrets and dual beam array. having three cannons not being able to fire on the target no matter how many circles you do is just annoying.


in a related circumstance klingons are learning and decloaking above you with beams and torps if you're an escort knowing you have no clue he's there and you have a good chance of having cannons equiped because you're a escort.

escorts are having to fly in a staggerd formation to counter this, ei. box formations of WWII bombers over germany. .. sure it works but try explaining that to people while you're under fire and micromanaging the half degree of firing arc you HOPE you might have because the visual overlay fore weapon arcs is only shown in 2D .... which just makes it WORSE

.. while i respect engine limitations and what not. (having written code for game publishers such as bullfrog, eidos and most recently ubisoft montreal) .. you have to accomidate the player when artifical limitations are in place, not make things worse.

my advice is to expand flight or the firing arcs (vertically) so that they at least overlap 5 degrees past 90. and re-orientate the zero axis of players ships with the horizontal plane of levels such as phi.

.. have you ever considered implementing a user generated content program for tribble? if you have plans for it, it wouldn't take much more for people such as myself to volunteer free time to repairing little things like level axis' and such on tribble, then when tested free of bugs, to be quite easily copied over with each season, or repair patch. .. this would drastically reduce the reputation both sto and champions have of both being still stuck in quasi/semi-beta.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
04-19-2010, 09:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GM_Litana
There were very extensive discussions on 360 degree/flight simulation-style flight, all throughout beta. It was carefully (and vocally) considered both on the forums and internally. Many pros and cons were weighed, including the level of immersion, the accessibility of a game with 360 degree flight, and how "Star Trek" such flight would be.

While I do not have the precise arguments for and against, and this is not the place to rehash them, the short version is that this is not something we'll be implementing.
Yes....but what i want to know is...are there any plans to up the amount we can go up or down a little more....

Self righting so that we are orientated the correct way is fine.....but maybe the ability to go down a bit more or up a bit more would be useful...i recall the enterprise inthe old series doing something like that.....but like this game....they haad an auto correction to their orientation to make sure they went back to their standard.

....um...now that i think about it...i hope i am not confused with one of the fan made episodes like from phase 2 or dark horizons or something......go figure....those are pretty cool shows too though.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
04-20-2010, 12:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Danger
If you not going to give us 360 degree then what about +- 90 degrees so we can atleast fly down? or if not that then will you fix the missions like the one the OP is talking about? its like you built the mission with 360 degree flight in mind but because we will never have it, it makes the mission a total pain.

As I already pointed out, the few missions like the one the OP mentioned are not very comfortable to maneuver, but well doable.

So, basically, there's nothing to "fix" here.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
04-20-2010, 12:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DK-Starfire
As I already pointed out, the few missions like the one the OP mentioned are not very comfortable to maneuver, but well doable.

So, basically, there's nothing to "fix" here.
It's sloppy design that doesn't add anything but extra travel time while at the same time highlights the counter-logical nature of an otherwise acceptable concession to accessibility of the game. I'd say it needs fixed.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
04-20-2010, 12:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forjo View Post
I don't understand how you guys are so open to make such massive design changes as you are doing with Klingon content, diplomacy, etc. and you refuse to consider (or, rehash, as you put it) our requests for this. Or to even let us test it on Tribble.

A bit of an inconsistency I'd say.

-Forjo

It is very consitent. The changes you mention are either targetted to expand playable content (missions in particular) or will implement new mechanics and options.

Changing the maneuvering controls for starships to full free movement would however be altering one of the core mechanics of the game.
And as far as I know, no such thing is planned at all with any of the game's basic mechanics.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
04-20-2010, 12:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GM_Litana
There were very extensive discussions on 360 degree/flight simulation-style flight, all throughout beta. It was carefully (and vocally) considered both on the forums and internally. Many pros and cons were weighed, including the level of immersion, the accessibility of a game with 360 degree flight, and how "Star Trek" such flight would be.

While I do not have the precise arguments for and against, and this is not the place to rehash them, the short version is that this is not something we'll be implementing.

Although I hate to contradict you on this, but...

... 360 flight worked perfectly with Bridge Commander. And that game is, apart from being combat-heavy as well as STO is, one of THE most "Star Trek" games I have ever played.


I think however that I can also get a grasp of the possible reasons that spoke against 360 flight, such as possible orientation problems or the rather hilarious image of, say, 4 ships parked together in quite crazy angles to eachother at the end of a succesful battle (anyone who played Bridge Commander knows what I'm talking about here - "standing" upside down in front of a Starbase does look goofy).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
04-20-2010, 12:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by squidheadjax View Post
It's sloppy design that doesn't add anything but extra travel time while at the same time highlights the counter-logical nature of an otherwise acceptable concession to accessibility of the game. I'd say it needs fixed.

Technically, something only needs fixing if it is broken. The missions with steep flight angles are working as intended, as far as I know, and therefore do not require a fix.

Maybe a slight change to make them a bit easier to maneuver, but definitely no "fix".


It seems this is really a matter of perspective. To you those missions are a unpleasant reminder about STO's limitations, to me they are a welcome alternative to the usually less-than-entertaining "maneuvering" we get to do on most of the "normal" missions.
Actually having to think about one's approach for more than 2 seconds is rare in STO - the only other place I can think of right now where steep angles come into play outside of those few patrols are Deep Space Encounters.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
04-20-2010, 12:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DK-Starfire
Technically, something only needs fixing if it is broken. The missions with steep flight angles are working as intended, as far as I know, and therefore do not require a fix.

Maybe a slight change to make them a bit easier to maneuver, but definitely no "fix".


It seems this is really a matter of perspective. To you those missions are a unpleasant reminder about STO's limitations, to me they are a welcome alternative to the usually less-than-entertaining "maneuvering" we get to do on most of the "normal" missions.
Actually having to think about one's approach for more than 2 seconds is rare in STO - the only other place I can think of right now where steep angles come into play outside of those few patrols are Deep Space Encounters.
You find corkscrewing and backtracking through clear space entertaining?
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