Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 31
04-24-2010, 05:09 AM
Dewitt: I agree with pretty much everything you said.

I've been playing MMO's since 2004, and the whole idea that there can't be change in MMO's really irates me.
It's like every game has to follow the same formula, or it get's trashed (though if it follows the formula too much it gets called a WoW clone usually).

Sadly, this is the whiner part of the PvP community surfacing. They do in every game, giving the rest of us PvPer's a bad name. Most nerfs, changes, and general idiocy is because of this minority of people, whining because they actually have to work to be good at PvP.

Now as far as combat effectiveness goes, I have a real life example. In WWII, many navies used converted merchantmen as escort craft for convoys. If you looked at it, it looked almost exactly like a merchantman.
They also used ships like this as bait for subs, hopefully the sub would surface to order the "merchantman's" crew to lifeboats and sink it from the surface....only the bait would uncover it's deck guns and (hopefully) sink the sub.
Look up "WWII escort carrier"....this was a small aircraft carrier that had begun as a civilian freighter. When the war broke out, they took ships in the yards still being built, and reconfigured them into aircraft carriers. I'm sure the same thing happened with other types of ships being converted into cruisers, destroyer escorts, ect. Yet, many of them internally and below the waterline were/began as civilian cargo type ships.

In real military forces, equipment is often used for many decades, look at the AK-47 (over 60 years)or the M1 Abrams (over 30) . I'd have to think that something as expensive as a starship would be refitted and used for as long as possible.

As far as ST ships go, isn't the reason they got bigger was for crew size? Kirk had 2 or 400 people, whereas Picard had something like 1000. I'd think the actual parts for say a phaser bank would get smaller over time (look at say cellphones IRL). So, there's no reason a RA5 couldn't have a Connie retrofitted with top of the line gear.
If anything, I'd do it for the same reasons as the WWII "bait" ships I mentioned earlier.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 32
04-24-2010, 05:34 AM
The fact that PvP'rs would complain that they could not be sure of a ship's pedigree if lower tier ships were upgradable is just as sad as the Klangs claiming they aren't totally broken in PvP.

I would pay good money to see a Connie go "Death Blossom" on a group of cowardly VM using cannon spamming Klangers!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 33
04-24-2010, 09:48 AM
you should just simply unlock a skin every time you get a given ship, so you can 'refit' it into a newer tier. You should be required to stay within a given ships type though.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 34
04-24-2010, 04:23 PM
W@Chompo - good examples on real military equipment. I myself carried and fired an M-60 machinegun that saw action in Nam. Remember at the end of the movie Platoon, where reinforcements arrived and saved the day? The basics for that scene actually happened. That was my battalion coming in to reinforce 3rd battalion (Oliver Stone's unit 3-22 Infantry). My old pig was probably used in that real life battle. It had been refit with new parts, probably several barrel replacements, and add-ons like the heat shields replaced for newer lighter versions.

Those pigs were finally retired in I think late 1997 or early 1998. We unsuccessfully petitioned for one to be fit with a plugged barrel and the internal firing works removed so we could put it in a display case at battalion HQ, along with the various "trophies" from such places as Mogadishu, Port-Au-Prince (we did palace security, and ecorted the President after he returned), Florida (Hurricane Andrew relief) and the two bronze cannons captured from the Spanish in the Phillipines.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 35
04-29-2010, 01:28 AM
Sorry to bump this with another question about the shield, but I've gotten thru Memory Alpha (Pain in the butt) to get this same shield, and the only Covariant X I can get only gives 7,838 CAP with a 131 regen..Same shield I've already got.

Just out of curiosity, what class was the fleet mate that crafted that shield for you?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 36
04-29-2010, 06:18 AM
Originally Posted by DeWitt_LSF
Well again, your point is pretty much invalid. Open PvP, you are level 45, you target a TOS Connie, and notice it is an even con. Just assume he's in a tier 5 ship with a skin. People made this same argument in SWG when they were adding the appearance item system. They argued that they would see somebody in normal clothes and not know what type of armor they were wearing, or see them in battle armor, but they were wearing assult or recon. SOE added in an option to turn off appearance items when you examine somebody, but who has time to do that in a mass PvP battle?

Canon examples of higher ranking people commanding a (STO) lower level ship -

* Kirk - every Connie version of the Enterprise up to Admiral rank (tier 1 or tier 2 ship ingame)
* Riker - As Admiral he commanded the Enterprise-D (All Good Things...) (tier 4 ship)
* Harry Kim - commanded a Nova, the Rhode Island (End Game) as a Captain (Tier 2 ship)
* Admiral Eric Pressman - had his flag on the USS Crazy Horse (Excelsior-class) (not in game, should be a tier 2 variation IMO)
* Beverly Crusher - Captain, USS Pasteur (Olympic-class) (Tier 3 ship)
* Vulcan Captain of USS Saratoga (named as Saros or Storil in two differing texts) (Reliant-class) (Starter Ship)

I can quite literally go on and on here. The fact remains that many people want to at least have the appearance of a specific ship which is currently only available at lower tiers than are feasible to use at current endgame, or for progression for that matter.
This argument also doesn't hold water, as the canon examples are an argument against skins, these people captained a weaker ship, their is no 'tier' in startrek whether its ToS, TNG, DS9, or whatever.

These people comanded weaker ships, not ship that were all of the same power but looked weaker.

Under these proposals, I have every right to ask for runnabout skin on my soverign class battleship.

where realisim is totally lost is the fact that everyone,can, have the most powerfull class of ship and comand it, imagine if cryptic desided there could only be a set number of the larger ships, imagine the out cry then, though it would be far more 'realistic' as this is the reason an Admiral is comanding the Crazy horse, in the first place.

There are not enough big uber space ships for everyone to comand.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 37
04-29-2010, 06:50 AM
Actually Haj.qou, using canon further validates my argument when you put it that way. With each refit their ships became more powerful than it was previously. Who can say what types of upgrades the Crazy Horse had gotten. And I thin you missed some of the proposed restrictions. You would be limited to skins from that ship category (cruiser, science, escort) so that for you r Sovvy you could choose to make it look like the tier 2 cruisers if you like but not a tier 2 science ship.

I honestly fail to see why this is so opposed. If you prefer to fly a ship that looks like a Sovvy then do so. If you like the other (IMO horrid designs) tier 5 ship styles, choose them. Many players would prefer to command an older ship, many of which would still be in service, and could fairly easily be upgraded due to modular construction principles employed by Starfleet since prior to the TNG era.

I am a proponent of a toggle in the options to show only default uniform styles and colors, mainly because a lot of people like to run around looking like their favorite superhero, manga character, or Ronald McDonald himself. When they first said in early development that you would be able to customize your ships, I was in the camp pushing for the same kind of toggle for ships. Turns out we didn't need it, but if this were such a huge issue for a lot of people I would be happy to compromise so you guys don't get confused while playing a game.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 38
04-29-2010, 07:40 AM
I think the ships should *NOT* be significantly upgradeable beyond their tier. Maybe some averaging of stats and caps and such as you go up, but that's about it.

Rather, I would suggest a bonus to skill points, merit points, or etc. for victory with a lower tier ship, on the basis of saving the Federation/Empire the resources of using a newer, more expensive ship.

Either that, or you should be able to let some of your inactive boffs fly one of your lower-tier ships for you as an NPC follow-along assistant, much the way your boffs help you out on the ground. You could send them to collect anomalies for you, or take things to the bank, or go to a merchant to buy and sell for you, too. :p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 39
04-29-2010, 07:53 AM
"I say give each ship class and tier a unique special ability (or two or three for the lowest tiers to make up for the lack of BO slots) in line with thier class that everyone would want to have in a fleet.

The upper tier ships retain their raw power, more BO, weapon & console slots. But welcome the smaller frys due to the added functionality that they could bring to the table.

great idea

i am happy with the first ship

like the second one as well

in one episode of the original there was a tiny ship attacking the enterprise and almost winning
-it had all power to speed and weapons kinda like the german rocket plane in ww2.

been mentioning a Freightor captain option using the "Botany Bay" style DSY 100
thinkng a non fed route like hans solo or that serenty captain - but it would only be feasible if it were speacialized- real slow turn rate - but like a trucker could really fly forwards or back
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 40
04-29-2010, 10:36 AM
These people comanded weaker ships, not ship that were all of the same power but looked weaker.

A ship that for all intents and purposes looked like an ordinary 80 year-old Excelsior, yet whooped the "Most heavily armed ship in the quadrant" quite properly.

Refits to make a weak ship quite powerful, without drastically changing it's design, are canon.

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