Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
04-24-2010, 09:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by faithborn
he doesn't say he wants to pug, he says that premades are ruining his experience. further more, he would only not like premades if he was losing to them, after all why complain if you beat them?

this all took about 5 seconds of reading into his post to figure out. your insipid defense of "OMG I suck, ruin the competition not me" is worse than his initial post.
And if you stopped digging so deep, you will see that the man just wants pugs and premades separated because he prefers pugs.

Sure he is upset. He just want to enjoy a nice random game with random people and can't seem to find it this evening. I know the feeling. So put aside all his emotion and see what he wants.

Separation of game types.... because he prefers to pug.

But you are still digging.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
04-24-2010, 10:20 PM
I can see the benefit of mixing up some of the teams a bit for casual players. Established teams, or even pick-up group members who stick together for several runs, definitely have the upper hand and in my opinion are loads more fun than just randomly being bunched together each game. That being said, sometimes premade v. PUG has it's drawbacks too. How much fun can it be for either side to finish a match in less time than it took to queue up?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
04-24-2010, 11:41 PM
Yeah we need another reason for players to not need a fleet or team up... Just play a FPS and be done with it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
04-25-2010, 01:30 AM
WARNING: Wall O' Text Inbound

Quote:
Originally Posted by akumarev
I can promise you that when you have ateam that is set up prior to the game starting the game is a lot of fun, more than a PUG game. try it you will ike it
Ok, so this will be a first...I'm going to openly disagree with my fleet leader here. The OP will most likely not enjoy a Premade team versus his concept of a PUG team. Why? Because you have to look at the subject of that question...

Here's an individual who picks up an MMO (a community based game) and levels through the content almost 100% on his own via the PvE experience. The AI for PvE enemies is designed by a human but is singular in its pattern and plays only one way. The same way every time. To defeat the AI you develop an effective counter and play that style every time. Same result...a victory. This has been his experience in STO up to this time.

Then he jumps into PvP. Whether it be a PUG or a Premade team it will be full of live human beings unprogrammed to fight in only one particular style like the AI. Human players adapt, alter tactics on the fly, and all possess different BO powers, weapon loadouts, and ship/captain builds. So the "cookie-cutter" strategy he learned via countless levels of PvE is now useless and does not work as desired. There is a chess-like set piece battle in all forms of PvP which require timing, counter-versus-counter applications, and strategy. There is also human emotion and psychology involved. Absolutely nothing like what he has experienced in PvE.

So what happens? Instead of developing the desire to improve or the drive to be better he becomes upset and posts about his desire to have separate PUG and Premade battlespaces. Why? Because he doesn't want to learn and improve but rather to find a PvP arena in which he can return to his PvE techniques of one technique victories. It's a classic Xbox single player mentality.

As a former competitor in organized leagues for both Call of Duty 4 and Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 I can tell you firsthand that even professional players (who do this for a living) have been known to post horrible scores for kill/death, accuracy, and objectives when unteamed...regardless of individual skill. This is due to the effect of teamwork in all PvP environments. It involves the fact that good players develop a teamplay mindset and naturally gravitate towards organization and unity. When unstructured, chance and randomness take control. There is no need to improve technique or learn strategy. There is one "noob" or "scrub" combination (such as Marathon/Lightweight/Commando in MW2) which, while dominating against poor or inexperienced players, simply cannot be competitive against adaptive teamwork. This dynamic is removed during uncoordinated play and individual players play at a lower level. This is even more evident in games which have a stricter class structure (DPS, healer, etc) such as STO.

The same principle applies here. You can stack and spam 4 or 5 Reverse Shield Polarities in PvE but a good team with TSS will neutralize this. You can have multiple copies of Viral Matirx or Subnucleonic Beam and good teamwork and team healing can overcome this. So you are forced to adapt or die (you know...Darwin). It really is that simple. Asking the DEV's to create, in essence, a toned down and white-washed version of PvP so that you can play an MMO without teamwork or team unity is against the very fiber of what an MMO is designed to do...bring players together in an environment of shared interest to socialize, game, and complete objectives.

Do you ever notice there are no Klingon players asking for separate PvP arenas? This is because their gaming experience up to this point has prepared them for PvP while Feds level through a glorified single player, space pew pew arcade game. I can understand the viewpoint that Premade teams may "ruin" certain players conceptions and experiences in STO. Life has a way of ruining a lot of individuals expectations and experiences as well. You can either choose to have someone else lower the bar for everyone so you can feel comfortable or raise your own level of ability through effort and dedication. You want to be successful in something in life? You have to earn it. You want to be successful in STO? You have to work at it. Certain games, game types, and/or game environments aren't for everyone and not everyone will have the same ability level.

Rather than further segment the already scattered STO community by separating PvP into rooms for Premade and PUG players why not implement a True Skill matchmaking system? Or have a PvE rank (we're all Rear Admirals anyway) and a PvP rank? Either system allows matchmaking to be paired through appropriate skill level versus "rank." If you lack skill, teamwork, or the desire to improve you can be matched with other players of similar skill statistics and abilities as your own. For those who excel at PvP and desire ever-increasing challenges they will be paired with similarly skilled opponents. This satisfies all as Premades do not want to go 15-2, 15-0, and 15-1 over and over again. It is just as frustrating to us as it is for you on the receiving end. You can still have a PUG team but made up of good players versus the random teaming we have now. Your teammates and opponents will all be similarly skilled. Just separating PUG and Premade does not accomplish this and you'll be just as unhappy if you get your wish as many good players (Surgery and Faithborn to name a few) play in PUG groups as well and you'll lose to them just as fast.

Food for thought...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
04-25-2010, 05:44 AM
I find it funny that we refer to STO as a "community based game" when it comes to PvP, but in reality, the shard system breaks up the community to such an extent that any real sense of community has the same chance of growing as a flower does in a tunnel.

There is a legitimate "solo" mind frame for this game, because the environment of the game itself creates it. A few other games have the shard system. Guild Wars is one of them. They recognize that this is a factor and have set PvP around this as well, by having the random solo queues available.

You just enter the queue and you are dropped into a random battle with 3 other random team mates (This is the arena mode) and you fight it out. It is all random and very fun.

Arena Mode Video

Guild Wars has "Guild Hall" battles where you take over the opponent's guild hall. This MUST be premade groups and there are territory control battles as well that can be random or group.

Guild Battle Video This is filmed in OBSERVE mode. The person is not actually playing... just watching.

These options are very successful to this day in the game. Very fun.. even more fun, because you can just click observe and watch people fight, without even playing. That is a great way to learn.

------------------------------------

The reason I see that most people don't want a solo queue is that there are already too many choices as it is.

This is a structuring problem of the PvP queue in and of itself. The whole thing can be simplified by simply adding a randomizer to map choices and just choosing game types.

Arena ------ kill 15 (random map) FvF, FvK
Capture ---- Objectives (random map) FvF, FvK
Random ---- Random Team, Random map, Random game type, Random Faction opponent. (it could randomly do FvF or FvK depending on how many queued on either side)

yes, I know.. I know... solar wind does not work well on some people's computers. Well, Cryptic can fix that or that person can drop their graphics settings to compensate. The progress of a game should not be held back by some dude who has a computer made in 1985, otherwise we can tell game developers that games like Crysis should never be attempted and we should go for a more retro "Pac-man" kind of look.

When most of the game supports and in fact encourages solo play, don't get upset with players who wish to have the opportunity to continue along this path. Having a solo queue also assists premade groups by removing players from the queues that do not wish to do premade battles. This means more challenging fights for you,..more fun for us...

There are ways to do this,..
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
04-26-2010, 07:58 AM
Whats wrong with just joining a que and playing along side those that are in it? This is what I did all weekend and I had a blast, win or lose it was fun.
Of course I was playing at LTcmdr level so things were not to ability driven and still fun.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
04-26-2010, 08:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roach View Post
Of course I was playing at LTcmdr level so things were not to ability driven and still fun.
I agree, after getting to RA5 I started a new character and I'm Lt Cmdr now. PvP is much more enjoyable at T2. It's actually fun, not about how many buffs/debuffs I can click on in 2 seconds. You have more time to worry about things like ship placement, shield strength, etc. instead of constantly checking which cooldowns are up.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
04-26-2010, 04:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfc133 View Post
I agree, after getting to RA5 I started a new character and I'm Lt Cmdr now. PvP is much more enjoyable at T2. It's actually fun, not about how many buffs/debuffs I can click on in 2 seconds. You have more time to worry about things like ship placement, shield strength, etc. instead of constantly checking which cooldowns are up.
Exactly..... PvP at Admiral level currrently not enjoyable and unbalanced. High end pvp in SWG and even WoW is better than what this game has to offer.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
04-26-2010, 04:49 PM
oh, i thought this post was going to be about having more than 3-4 maps ingame. That is something that needs to be fixed. This cookie cutter garbage got old 2 days after release.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
04-26-2010, 05:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaruslothran View Post
I find it funny that we refer to STO as a "community based game" when it comes to PvP, but in reality, the shard system breaks up the community to such an extent that any real sense of community has the same chance of growing as a flower does in a tunnel.

There is a legitimate "solo" mind frame for this game, because the environment of the game itself creates it. A few other games have the shard system. Guild Wars is one of them. They recognize that this is a factor and have set PvP around this as well, by having the random solo queues available.

You just enter the queue and you are dropped into a random battle with 3 other random team mates (This is the arena mode) and you fight it out. It is all random and very fun.

Arena Mode Video

Guild Wars has "Guild Hall" battles where you take over the opponent's guild hall. This MUST be premade groups and there are territory control battles as well that can be random or group.

Guild Battle Video This is filmed in OBSERVE mode. The person is not actually playing... just watching.

These options are very successful to this day in the game. Very fun.. even more fun, because you can just click observe and watch people fight, without even playing. That is a great way to learn.

------------------------------------

The reason I see that most people don't want a solo queue is that there are already too many choices as it is.

This is a structuring problem of the PvP queue in and of itself. The whole thing can be simplified by simply adding a randomizer to map choices and just choosing game types.

Arena ------ kill 15 (random map) FvF, FvK
Capture ---- Objectives (random map) FvF, FvK
Random ---- Random Team, Random map, Random game type, Random Faction opponent. (it could randomly do FvF or FvK depending on how many queued on either side)

yes, I know.. I know... solar wind does not work well on some people's computers. Well, Cryptic can fix that or that person can drop their graphics settings to compensate. The progress of a game should not be held back by some dude who has a computer made in 1985, otherwise we can tell game developers that games like Crysis should never be attempted and we should go for a more retro "Pac-man" kind of look.

When most of the game supports and in fact encourages solo play, don't get upset with players who wish to have the opportunity to continue along this path. Having a solo queue also assists premade groups by removing players from the queues that do not wish to do premade battles. This means more challenging fights for you,..more fun for us...

There are ways to do this,..
I agree. This game is hardly about community. Fleets aren't needed, other than for premade pvp and pve. Fleets aren't competitive. Fleets don't interact socially. And if you are like 95% of the klingon fleets, you only have 1-5 players signing on anymore, because they have gone back to other games or just flat out quit. Fleet recognition isn't even designed as part of the game.For example, if you want someone to see what fleet you are in, you have to put it on your ship name and waste space. 9/10's of the zones aren't available to the other faction. No formal guild wars. No central hub for both factions to meet and chat. That bar in the neutral zone is stupid. Is there even an exchage/mail/bank there?

About the only social people in here are the rp'ers, and let's face it, they are creepy. Need proof, walk into Quarks. STO needs a sandbox system like swg. Let both sides intermix. It's kind of canonical. The feds always turn the other cheek, and let Klingons mingle. It's usually to their detriment, but the Federation is a bunch of space hippies. This could work out decently for the open map pvp people want. Just have an overt/covert status going and a comm system/recruiter in all major hubs. You wouldn't even have to write that new of content, because you could let the klingons do rehashed fed missions.
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