Matt,

As much as you want everyone to be on the same playing skill level it aint gonna happen. If you suck at STO you will be discovered and removed from the raid. Mods or no mods you still suck. Nothing mods, or Cryptic, do will change that.

I have assumed nothing. The game has been out for 3 months and they have changed nothing in the UI. Have they enhanced the Exchange? No. Have they added more buttons? No. Just what changes have they made to the UI? People are asking for these changes. As I said earlier....I have actually conversed with a GM who told me that the UI is not on their priority list.

Blizzard, as a result of mods, has added:

Tooltip on mouse (used to be in bottom right corner)
Auto Loot
Target of Target Cast Bars
Range in Raid Interface
Combat text options
Equipment Manager (the one you pointed out)
Quest Tracker
and these are just some I can think of off the top of my head.

You are wrong. Quit assuming I don't know what I am talking about. Your archaic, selfish, reasoning is detrimental to the game. What is wrong with Exchange mods? What is wrong with Bar Mods? What is wrong with Map mods? Nothing.

--Cap

I never said this. I said I want everyone to have access to the same funtionality and data (i.e., equal access to the same tools, regardless of personal skill). If anyone does not have equal access to functionality or data, then this is unfair because it gives one player an inherently easier or better gameplay experience than another player.


March 24th Updates: 67 different line items for UI changes

April 29th Updates: 47 different line items for UI changes

I have excluded UI fixes/enhancements that were released in between and before these dates. So the total changes to the UI to date far outnumber 67 + 47. Including enhancements to the Exchange, and additional buttons to certain screens (such as PVP Queue window, Social window, etc.).


As I said repeatedly before, anything to do with -appearance- (or layout) does not change gameplay, and therefore is fine to me; it does not matter if some players can access those types of mods while others cannot. Functionality and game data, however -- such as meters, stat conversions, scripts, timer warnings, etc. -- do change gameplay, and must be available equally to all players.

Unfortunately this is not the case in WoW, for -- once again -- nowhere in your list do I see: boss mod, DPS/HPS meter, threat meter. Nor do I see: timer bars/warnings (RoguePowerBars, CT), tracked and untracked enemy bars (casts, cooldowns, buffs/debuffs, CC) (Natur Enemy Cast Bars). These mods have defined gameplay for years such that cutting-edge content is far more difficult without them. It is not fair that not everyone has equal access to these. I do not want to see that happen in STO.

Regarding your insistence on the 'I am right, you are wrong' and name-calling fallacies, I'm just going to borrow some links from Edgecase to help readers decide what is valid for discussion/argument:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denialism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_assertion

Regarding the case that modding is a reason for WoW's financial/marketing success:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correla...mply_causation

Every player can. Its called the internet. The functionality included in mods is available publically and is not limited to a select elite group. The access is available to all. If a person decides not to use this facility then that is his or her choice, just as it is the choice for the person who would like to utilise the mod.

Of course, you will probably say "But I shouldn't have to use those mods to be successful! Everybody should be the same!" If only the real world was like the utopian fantasy you seem to think about. Its a game, people will use every legal tool at their disposal to win. Cryptic can define what is and is not legal, after that it should be turned over to the people who play the game, not the ones who made it.

All the mods listed above use data that is already in the game combat logs and display them onscreen so that they can better used. Thats it. Do you honestly think any game developer would allow a mod that would change the underlying game mechanics, regardless of whether it was PVP or PVE? None of these mods changes the difficulty of the encounter, or reduces the number of opponents, or reduces the number of powers used against you. You seem to have an objection to more information being displayed on screen. More information equates to a better reaction from the player, it improves my game, which improves my enjoyment which in turn increases my customer loyalty to the game. Is this bad?

Who does not have access to these mods? People without the internet? If they dont have access to the internet, how the hell are they playing the game in the first place. You seem to think you are a messiah to all the unfortunate souls who have been left behind in a modless purgatory. Any MMORPG is dynamic ever evolving entity, that changes not only because of what the developers do, but also because of what the players do.

If a developer cannot instigate change fast enough, the oppurtunity should be given to the players to make a difference. They'll jump at the chance, not because of any finanacial gain, but because they love playing the game and want to make it into a better place. I've seen it happen in WOW, WAR and AO.

Matt,

My Point is that you are against mods. I am not. You do not want anyone to have access to anything you dont want, like meters for example. That is selfish You are against people wanting to make their character the best they can make it. You want everyone to play with the vanilla UI that Cryptic has created.

So...let me ask you directly. Are you against:

Auction (Exchange) mods? If yes, Why?
Map Mods? If yes, Why?
Bar Mods? If yes, Why?
Meter Mods? If yes, Why?
Fleet Mail Mods? If yes, Why?

You didn't see DMB, etc in my list because they haven't been included in WOW's UI. However they did make changes to accomodate those who were looking for more information, hence the expanded combat information.

Now...lets go one step further. My main concern is the lack of customization for me. I am left handed and customization is important to me. I want to be able to adjust my bars anyway I want to. I want 12 buttons instead of 10 (what idiot decided not to use all 12 buttons?) I want to be able to sort the Exchange any way I want to. I want to be able to easily find market pricing for items. I want to be able to quickly and easily locate systems on the map and to discern the best course to get there. I want to be able to game mail my fleet and do so by rank.

The 114 so called UI changes with the vast majority of them being fixes. were just that....FIXES and CHANGES. I, and may others, want these additions, or enhancements, to the UI.

Meters....While I tend to agree with you on the part they play in raids I also understand the need for the information they provide. I have yet to find any comprehensive information on what Science station consoles do for me and my build. I am unsure what the deflector stats are and how they effect me. These are things that I want to know. I want to know which weapon works best with my skills. Where is this information? Has Cryptic put out a comprehensive guide to this game that explains this? Not that I have found. www.stowiki.org is sorely lacking on info. That is one thing you can't deny about WOW....there are so many sites out there with information on the game it is amazing. Do we see that with STO? Hell no. Cryptic released this game well before it should have been. Now they are playing catch up.

Now if Cryptic can't do this in a timely fashion then they should let the modding community do it for them. I dont think we need Cryptic to do all that testing, approval, incorporation and the version release. I wanted this stuff 3 months ago. Hell...it took them over a month to fix the Fleet bank. For those who didn't know that was ZERO security in the fleet bank for nearly 6 weeks. Members could take anything and everything, including energy credits, out with impunity.

--Cap

You have hinted to the basis for my argument: tools that define gameplay, and equal access to the same tools. Tools should not define gameplay, as they have in WoW. Once tools define gameplay, then it becomes a requirement to use those tools in order to succeed. Which means that everyone needs equal access to the same tools in order to be able to compete fairly.

Regarding equal access, I will address that below.


I have no objection to more information being displayed. I -want- more information being displayed. But I also want -everyone- to have equal access to that information.

My contention is that, if this information can only be displayed by third-party mods, then:

1) Those without the programming know-how will need to rely on third-party programmers.
2) Third-party programmers are unreliable and unaccountable, as are the sites that host their mods.
3) Gameplay may come to rely on better information display, which can only be achieved by third-party programming.

This is not equal access to the same tools. Or, at the very least, this is not as equal, reliable, or secure as having the game developer (Cryptic) provide these tools.


Let me summarise the fundamental points of the two sides to this topic:

• Pro-modding:
  • Customisability. End-users are not restricted by the first party (game developer).
  • Time. Third-party mods can be produced far more quickly than first-party patches or mods.
  • Cost. Mods are 'free' (depending upon the author).
  
  
• Anti-modding:
  • Security. Third-party sources cannot be trusted as much as the first party (game developer).
  • Reliability. Third-party mods may not be as reliable as first-party patches or mods.
  • Cost. Access to third-party mods may not be as cheap as access to first-party patches or mods, due to the above concerns.

Note that I exclude gameplay dependency upon these tools, because the overriding concern is where the tools come from.

My proposed compromise -- mod submissions to Cryptic, with open/active testing on Tribble -- eliminates all anti-modding concerns, only at the expense of some time (from the pro-modding list).

Once again, you have ignored my previous posts, where I clearly stated that I am -not- against customisation, nor do I accept the current 'vanilla' UI. I am not sure how I can be more clear than that.

I have stated repeatedly that I am fine with UI modding (and so I will not address your list case-by-case), but only if everyone has equal access. And the only way to ensure equal access is for the developer (Cryptic) to offer them.

This does not mean they should only offer the 'vanilla' UI, or build them all into the UI. This means that they could -- as I proposed -- offer optional mods that they approve of, which have been tested and secured. This would only cost a little time, if Tribble were opened up to this.


Actually, I have been a Fleet Leader since Beta, and there were adequate permissions since then. If you did not want anyone to be able to withdraw anything, you could deny them that privilege. The problem was that there was no middle-ground between withdrawing everything and withdrawing nothing, which has subsequently been added.

But off-topic aside, it seems your only concern is time. (Which should not really matter so much to a Lifetime Subscriber, but that is my opinion.) My concern is access, which is broken down into security, reliability, and cost.

My compromise costs some time, but eliminates all other concerns (while still maintaining the other benefits of modding). I fail to see how this is worth calling someone selfish and narrow-minded, or how suggesting a compromise is being selfish or narrow-minded.

Matt I'm going to try to counter one of your points - security. I don't know about WoW mod sites (I have heard bad things though) but the sites I use for custom UIs for games I play - Vanguard, EQ1, EQ2, LOTRO - all have a single site where the community can go and download the files. All under one game site's flag. All are run by community members and moderated by them. Uploads by aithors are scanned for any imbedded virus before it is manually approved. Corrupt files may occasionally be encountered especially from a new author, but I have not heard of anybody getting a virus from any of these sites since I think 2002 when the UI for EQ changed to allow customization by players.

Now IF a decision was made and a means implemented for players to customize the STO UI, I would very highly suggest approaching these folks to set up a site for STO UI files and downloads. I've never had to pay anything for a download, yes the site uses advertising to help pay for it, and yes you can buy a premium membership but that in my opinion is only really good to do for one game to access their info on quests, loot, mobs...

In other words, if they were willing to set it up and there was a large enough player desire for the site, it would be a very safe place to host and get the files without security concerns.

Before anybody gets all conspiratorial, I am a free unpaid member of that family of sites, I do not represent them in any fashion other than as a player and user of their "services" and I have no agenda other than being a productive member of the STO community.

A third-party site is still a third-party site. There is no control over them or their offerings by the game developer (Cryptic), which means neither security nor reliability can be guaranteed. Which means that if gameplay ever becomes dependent upon these mods (like it is in WoW), some players will be at a disadvantage.

Matt,

I was told by a GM....the same one who told me that UI enhancements are not on the top of the to do list...Told me that they were aware of the problem and had not responded to posts on these very forums because they did not want to tell everyone that the fleet banks were available for your stealing pleasure. They did not have a way, and still dont, to just contact Fleet GM's about the issue. They were aware of it and they would correct this but not sure when. This is a fact. Not an assumption.

Everyone has equal access. As Chaosengine states, very clearly, everyone will have equal access via the internet. You can choose what you want and dont want. Here is what I think (This IS and ASSUMPTION): I think you were such a crappy player in wow that no one wanted you. You discovered this when you applied to a top raiding guild and they made you install meters. The first time you went to a raid with them they laughed at you and kicked you out. Please dont take that as a personal insult. I sucked in raids also. I didn't even attend raids in my own guild cause their were so many players better than I was. I think that is why you have the anti-game enhancing attitude you do.

So....let me offer my hand in friendship and agree to disagree. You are still welcome on my vent to visit and chit chat. You sound like an intelligent person and someone I could have a friendly debate with.

Cheers to all as I will no longer support this thread with responses.

Cheerio!
--Cap

They do, its called the internet.

As in every other competitive arena, virtual or otherwise.

They do, its called the internet.

Just like 99% of the software that is running on your computer right now.

Incorrect. If mods were so unreliable, we would be hearing multiple stories of MMORPGS crashing globally. So far, its quiet on the news front. If a mod crashes a client, it crashes one client, and that incidient will be reported. If a mod is deemed to be unstable by the community, the community will not download it. Instigating that members of a gaming community that take their time to better the gaming environment better for all as unreliable is insulting.

What one person decides to display on his or her monitor varies from one person to another. Thats the beauty of mods, you can decide what you want, when you want it. If a lack of information is causing an issue in the game, and someone has the knowledge to display that information, why not let them do it so long as it doesn't affect the underlying game mechanics.

The game was just updated to 1.1 and the servers have already crashed and are now down for maintenence. Yah, Cryptic are secure..reliable..dependable....

Trust is a relationship based on experience and mutuality and cannot be enforced. Trust is built over time. Ask how many people who played SWG trust SOE and I think you'l get a better understanding of what trust is.

Mods that have defined gameplay for years, but are not reliable. Very compelling arguement you have there.

Comparing a mod to a patch is nonsense, and I have not seen any sites that are turning a profit in selling mods. If they were, I would bet the game developers would shut them down. Name one please that is making money by specifically selling MODS.

Paranoia...

Hundreds, thousands of mods going into a single development team for verification. I can see that being a bastion of speed and efficiency.