Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
04-27-2010, 10:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Reel View Post
a shame realy, u leave the playing field wide open for gamers trying to get noticed. hull healing to the max, but when shields are needed dont provide cause it wont show up in the meters. vice versa people actualy doing alot of shield healing could be considered nubs because 'they dont contribute to a game' at least thats what everyone thinks because they have low damage at the end and low (hull)healing. not true, these guys could have easily just won you the map. like i said, a shame
I don't think that the type of players who focus on the healing charts would omit a type of healing just because it doesn't show.

I don't use Science Team or Transfer Shield Strength nearly as much as my hull heals, but that's because my talent spec and consoles support Engineering abilities mostly. I use Extend Shields every time it cools down, and use RSP fairly often too, because those are Engineering abilities. My Science abilities are really just there to fill gaps while my Engineering heals are on cooldown.

I'd love to see a category for shield healing added, but it should probably be separate from hull healing, otherwise RSP would smoke any other healing ability.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
04-27-2010, 10:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BountyXP View Post
Yes, really. You can throw the one or two examples you have out there Matt and I can refer you to the dozens of PvP videos my fleet has on YouTube where healing is horribly neglected by Fed PvP'ers. If you happen to be in a room with more healing than not it is the exception...not the rule.
I have at least a few dozen more score report screenshots showing similar output. I would say about 20% of the time (in Capture-and-Hold FvF), there are exceptionally low Healing stats (or several players with 0 Healing). If you wish, I can upload them all and link them, but it will take some time.

It should be noted that Healing stats really depend upon damage. If damage is being absorbed or resisted (i.e., high chance of survival by the target), then there is little need to waste hull repair cooldowns; shield resist/repair cooldowns are probably being used a lot more. And, as we have pointed out, Healing stats at present do not take into account shields.

===

In other words, I disagree with blanket stereotypes that the average Federation player outputs poor 'healing'. I feel that the average Federation player outputs average or above 'healing' (as needed to survive), certainly enough to constitute at least a simple majority (51%) of enjoyable (FvF) PVP experiences. This is based on my own personal experiences in Capture-and-Hold FvF.

If you are comparing Federation to Klingon, that is another matter entirely. I do not have enough data (score report screenshots) to compare average 'Healing' stats between factions.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
04-27-2010, 10:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_Dravis
In other words, I disagree with blanket stereotypes that the average Federation player outputs poor 'healing'. I feel that the average Federation player outputs average or above 'healing' (as needed to survive), certainly enough to constitute at least a simple majority (51%) of enjoyable PVP experiences. This is based on my own personal experiences in Capture-and-Hold FvF.

If you are comparing Federation to Klingon, that is another matter entirely. I do not have enough data to compare average 'Healing' stats between factions.
You certainly can disagree but your links that you tout as evidence of "above average" healing really strengthen my point. Take Faithborn out of your opponent's team and the other six players combined don't add up to his healing total...not even close. Or was his team 6 Escorts and a Cruiser? Not to mention your sample of Capture and Holds only represents a portion of PvP. Those games are typically a lot longer than 5v5 arena games and much more damage is taken and heals given so the stats are skewed from that perspective. Typical 5v5 healing is so poorly executed and sparse that it is one of the major reasons we dominate so many opponents.

If you'd like to stand by your Fed healing opinion, I invite you to grab an Escort...join a PUG...and come face us (DOB). See how often and to what degree your teammates heal you when they're being attacked on all fronts by an effective team. They will wilt and look out for themselves...too busy RSP stacking to Extend Shields. Just my and my fleet's long and documented experience in FvF PvP.

I respect and understand your difference of opinion on the matter just don't agree with it...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
04-27-2010, 11:23 AM
You forgot to factor in How long people can last also and who to heal If i see someone getting owned and doing like no damage i will not heal them, why waste a heal on someone that clearly is not fited for pvp nd waste CD's when you could save those for people that need them. Allot of times thats what i see in FVF CTF full impulse into like 3 people and try to fight them yea I am not going to support that guy, I am going to support the guy that can actually do damage and cause concern for the enemy. At least thats what I factor into who to support and who not to support And usually when i find someone who knows what to do I will just follow them around. And since I dont have a fleet and pug mainly I am pretty sure its like that for allot of people.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
04-27-2010, 11:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BountyXP View Post
You certainly can disagree but your links that you tout as evidence of "above average" healing really strengthen my point. Take Faithborn out of your opponent's team and the other six players combined don't add up to his healing total...not even close. Or was his team 6 Escorts and a Cruiser? Not to mention your sample of Capture and Holds only represents a portion of PvP. Those games are typically a lot longer than 5v5 arena games and much more damage is taken and heals given so the stats are skewed from that perspective. Typical 5v5 healing is so poorly executed and sparse that it is one of the major reasons we dominate so many opponents.

If you'd like to stand by your Fed healing opinion, I invite you to grab an Escort...join a PUG...and come face us (DOB). See how often and to what degree your teammates heal you when they're being attacked on all fronts by an effective team. They will wilt and look out for themselves...too busy RSP stacking to Extend Shields. Just my and my fleet's long and documented experience in FvF PvP.

I respect and understand your difference of opinion on the matter just don't agree with it...
Condescending taunts (or advertising 'touts') of premades vs. PUGs aside...

My point is three-fold:

1) 'Healing' stats, at present, fail to account for a variety of factors, including: resistances, shields, damage received, necessity for healing.

2) One person's anecdotal evidence can be refuted by another's. Merely looking at only Arena, or only Capture-and-Hold, invalidates any stereotype dealing with overall space PVP. (Regardless of premade vs. PUG.)

3) Based on the above, and evidence I have collected (which I can upload and link upon request), Capture-and-Hold (FvF) specifically shows average and above 'Healing' stats for the typical player over 51% of the time. Again, these screenshots are only in the Capture-and-Hold (FvF) matches (of varying sizes) I have played, mostly PUGs.

===

We should have a clearer indication of 'healing' output once shields are accounted for, as Cryptic has indicated will happen in a future patch.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
04-27-2010, 12:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_Dravis
My point is three-fold:

1) 'Healing' stats, at present, fail to account for a variety of factors, including: resistances, shields, damage received, necessity for healing.
Yes they do and as such no true estimation of healing at the moment is accurate statistically. So anecdotal evidence is all the evidence we have. And based on the documented performance of Fed Premades who consistently heal hull and shields versus those that do not speak for themselves in the absence of true statistical evidence.

Quote:
2) One person's anecdotal evidence can be refuted by another's. Merely looking at only Arena, or only Capture-and-Hold, invalidates any stereotype dealing with overall space PVP. (Regardless of premade vs. PUG.)
Exactly...see quoted answer above.

Quote:
3) Based on the above, and evidence I have collected (which I can upload and link upon request), Capture-and-Hold (FvF) specifically shows average and above 'Healing' stats for the typical player over 51% of the time. Again, these screenshots are only in the Capture-and-Hold (FvF) matches (of varying sizes) I have played, mostly PUGs.
In the two links you referenced as evidence, both times the heavy healing was done by one of the 6 to 7 players listed on the opposing team. How is that 51%? You were the only one really healing on your teams too. Far less than 51%...so your links actually contradict your stated "51% typical player" theory.

Quote:
We should have a clearer indication of 'healing' output once shields are accounted for, as Cryptic has indicated will happen in a future patch.
I certainly hope so. A lot is expected of Cryptic in PvP but I fear the cries of "nerf this" or "nerf that" are drowning out the sensible calls for improvement (like your statistical thread on performance).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
04-27-2010, 12:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronico View Post
You forgot to factor in How long people can last also and who to heal If i see someone getting owned and doing like no damage i will not heal them, why waste a heal on someone that clearly is not fited for pvp nd waste CD's when you could save those for people that need them. Allot of times thats what i see in FVF CTF full impulse into like 3 people and try to fight them yea I am not going to support that guy, I am going to support the guy that can actually do damage and cause concern for the enemy. At least thats what I factor into who to support and who not to support And usually when i find someone who knows what to do I will just follow them around. And since I dont have a fleet and pug mainly I am pretty sure its like that for allot of people.
Have you though that if you did help heal the guy thats attacking 3 ships he might not die and might then actually add to your attempts to win.

I say this because too often in pug games I see players not supporting and attacking but rather just defending one flag trying to never die while the enemy just collects the other 4 flags and wins just by keeping the fed ball from moving away from that one flag.

At least the guy thats attacking those 3 ships is trying to bring the fight to the enemy rather then just circling one flag hoping the enemy comes to it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
04-27-2010, 02:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BountyXP View Post
In the two links you referenced as evidence, both times the heavy healing was done by one of the 6 to 7 players listed on the opposing team. How is that 51%? You were the only one really healing on your teams too. Far less than 51%...so your links actually contradict your stated "51% typical player" theory.
Apologies for confusion, but I never stated 51% of Federation players heal an average or above amount.

I did say the following:
Quote:
I feel that the average Federation player outputs average or above 'healing' (as needed to survive), certainly enough to constitute at least a simple majority (51%) of enjoyable (FvF) PVP experiences. This is based on my own personal experiences in Capture-and-Hold FvF.
Quote:
Based on the above, and evidence I have collected (which I can upload and link upon request), Capture-and-Hold (FvF) specifically shows average and above 'Healing' stats for the typical player over 51% of the time. Again, these screenshots are only in the Capture-and-Hold (FvF) matches (of varying sizes) I have played, mostly PUGs.
I say 'over 51%' (or a simple majority) with reference to the total quantity of matches I have played.

In other words, I say that, in my two dozen (or so) score report screenshots of Capture-and-Hold (FvF), the 'typical player' tends to 'heal' an 'average' (or above) amount in over half of those matches.

If you wish to discuss further semantics, I can break down my definitions for the above as well, just so we're all clear and there is no confusion.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
04-27-2010, 02:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_Dravis
just so we're all clear and there is no confusion.
Nope...no confusion. Your evidence is based on an extremely small sample size (your two dozen recorded PvP matches) and partial and overly focused game circumstance (only Fed capture and hold maps). Over the broader spectrum of literally hundreds of PvP matches my fleet and I have experienced...from 5v5 arena to Capture and Hold with both FvF and FvK variants...we have seen an inordinate amount of Fed players failing to heal, failing to properly utilize preemptive healing or hull resistance stacking, and generally beseeching the teamplay concept for individual survivability. Your links demonstrate evidence contrary to your stated theory (and that point has yet to be addressed) and yet you steadfastly cling to that hypothesis, as is your right.

Players like Faithborn are the exception and not the rule. I agree that due to lack of proper evidentiary compilation no stereotype...yours or mine...can be considered totally accurate. As such we're both simply speaking from personal experience. Your experience has shown you something and mine has demonstrated something else. As stated earlier, I agree to disagree on your theory that a majority of Fed players are good healers or team players.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
04-27-2010, 02:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BountyXP View Post
As stated earlier, I agree to disagree on your theory that a majority of Fed players are good healers or team players.
Well now, I never said that either.

I said that the 'typical' or 'average' Federation player -- not the majority of Federation players -- outputs 'average' or above 'healing'.

That doesn't mean a majority of Federation players are 'good' healers, nor does it even mean that (what I consider) the 'typical' player is a 'good' healer.
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