Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 401
12-18-2010, 10:59 AM
Most of this thread is hyperbolic and misrepresentative. But, if that post was the last straw to make you quit, then I don't think it would have taken much more. I reject that your arguments and desires should be taken seriously seeing as you have no strong desire to be a part of the community or this game. This is not the game for you and I hope you find something that you can enjoy your time with more. Take care.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 402
12-18-2010, 11:25 AM
That made me laugh, I'm not going anywhere and I have been a part of this community since at least January of this year. Some may not approve of what I want for this game, and some may approve, but anyone who has really followed my posts should realise that I do everything in my forum power to help the development of this game, much like many other users. We help each other, we help other forum members, we suggest, request ideas, some even demand, but I can't ever recall making a demand on these forums and I have never ever suggested that I would quit playing over something such as this or anything else for that matter.

This game is my life, I will continue to post here in an effort to help other players, help the Devs by giving feedback, suggesting ideas, locating bugs and making them money which they can use to make the game even better, but pretty much think I've done my part on that last one with my C-Store thread which has made quite an impact on the C-Store. Anyway I'm rambling on, here's a question for you...

Why are you following this thread and my other thread about collisions as well as doing your very best to fight against the them?

I mean, what's the point? Don't you think one vote and one post from yourself would be enough? I could understand if someone asked a question or got something wrong, and then you felt the need to help them or correct them, but really, going through all of my posts to try and find a post where I have asked for this, when all this ever was...

Was a thread designed to be fair, and allow all the players who viewed it to show Cryptic what they wanted, not request or demand, but simply show. All because dstahl completely ignored me back before the original post was made when I asked him to poll it officially.

See trouble is, every time they do a poll, it means they will implement what is in the poll, so they couldn't do a poll just to find out what players wanted and then turn around and say, oh hai sorry yeah we just wanted to know what you guys wanted, we never had any intention of implementing what you wanted, even though you are paying customers, etc...

I really don't think you get it, I mean why have so many players got to have a go at players who would like a realistic starship movement system?

Why not have a go at all those players who showed Cryptic that they didn't want any changes or the players who just want thrusters added?

The thread is here for all, not just for those who want the full 3D realistic stuff, heck I would be happy with that 85* as well as thrusters and special powers to get your ship to roll, loop or immelmans-turn that dstahl suggested all that time ago and the implementation of that would keep me quiet, because I would know that they have actually tried for a compromise, but it's not what I would truly be happy with.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 403
12-18-2010, 11:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alecto View Post
My point being, that no matter what the show or the movie is, a space craft depicted manoeuvring in space is exactly the same as any other, because the natural laws of physics don't change from one show to the next, space is the same no matter which TV show or movie you are watching. It's how you perceive what you are seeing which is the problem.
Dude, seriously? Seriously? srsly? I cannot believe you just claimed that.

Well, in that case, let's just get rid of all the sound effects in space then. Right?

Dude... it's science fiction. Hell, it's science fantasy. It's not science fact.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Alecto View Post
If not, why not exactly, a complete report please and also, if it's because of a number of folks who get disorientated, brain storm the issue and solve it allowing for everyone to be happy.
Who are you? Their boss? Besides, they already tried. They decided it was not what they thought was best for the game. I'd almost hope one of them does create a complete report just to squash this. But even they did, it wouldn't change anything. After all, they already said "no", already gave some reasons why, and yet this thread still exists, new threads spawn about it. Someone mentioned earlier in this thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pestalence_XC View Post
Cryptic clearly does listen to the player base..

HOWEVER

some of the player base does not want to listen to Cryptic.
I don't think anything they could do would ever satisfy you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alecto View Post
If you would like me to stop talking about this topic, just ask and there it is, this is want I want, apparently many, many others would also like the same thing.
This is a completely loaded and unfair question. There's no way Cryptic is going to say, "Don't stop discussing things." And we shouldn't. We should keep making threads discussing issues, possible changes, what we want. But we should do so in a constructive, reasonable way. Not in a way that misrepresents the core player base. Not in a way that ignores facts or ignores what is best for the game. Not in a way that creates an artificial bias.


If I were to put out a new poll with only two options, what do you think the majority of players would answer?

1) Would you like a movement system in Star Trek Online that is like Babylon 5, Battlestar Galactica, or the NASA Space Shuttle?
2) Would you like a movement system in Star Trek Online that is like Star Trek?



I can confidently state that I know exactly what I want in STO, but have not asked for it, but hell I might as well.


Dear Cryptic,

Please can you not significantly alter the existing starship movement system that continues to be the strongest selling point and most enjoyable aspect of Star Trek Online for the forseeable future?

If not, why not exactly? Please briefly state why you wish to move away from the established look and feel of Star Trek. Also, can you alleviate some of the concerns players have raised regarding such an implementation?

If you would like to provide some additional advice about how we can better discuss this topic so that we can provide more productive feedback, just ask and there it is. This is want I want. Even though there is no possible way for me to gather accurate statistical data on the issues, I hypothesize that many, many others would also like the same thing.

Thank you!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 404
12-18-2010, 11:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alecto View Post
That made me laugh, I'm not going anywhere and I have been a part of this community since at least January of this year.
He was talking about this guy, not you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roxbad
Well, I pretty much reject the premise of that rant as hyperbolic and misrepresentative.

You have convinced me, though. Based on the community, to which STO is apparently catering, it's not the game for me.
I'm sure it was hard to miss. It was posted right before yours.

Not every post here is about you.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 405
12-18-2010, 11:56 AM
Ok, just so you understand, when I'm talking "realistic", I'm talking realistic in terms of science fiction, because I understand that this is a game and that the show is not real, but many will understand that some see Star Trek as "real" to them.

So when I say all those shows are based in space and that a the ships all act the same realistic way because they are in space, even if you don't see it on screen more often then not, means I'm talking about the reality of the show, not the reality of life, but keeping in mind that the shows use many aspects of real life.


I know who I am, you should also understand that I am a player, no different, better or worse than you. What I stated was a question, honest and straight to the point and it was tested a long time ago before a player base even existed, at the time there were only play testers.


Many things Cryptic have done with the game have satisfied me...


That question was a completely fair question in regard to the topic, if they ask me to let it go, and stop talking about this topic, I will surely listen. It wasn't a question asking Cryptic to tell every player to stop talking about this topic, just me and I have the right to ask that question, I know the consequences.

You're poll would be flawed as the results would give the same results, both options result in realistic starship movement, if it's seen in one episode, it's canon and it was seen in more than one episode, not to mention (again), that they're in space where movement is not restricted.

I wont argue against what you want in STO, as you have the right to want whatever you want for the game, as do I and others.


Quote:
Originally Posted by captnwan View Post
He was talking about this guy, not you.

I'm sure it was hard to miss. It was posted right before yours.

Not every post here is about you.
My bad, thanks for letting me know, although I do understand that not every post here is aimed at me, but some don't like to take the heat and defend what they believe in. Although in this case, I did miss that post and assumed it was directly aimed at me.

Sorry Fizxman, my bad, but my point still stands.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 406
12-18-2010, 12:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alecto View Post
That made me laugh, I'm not going anywhere and I have been a part of this community since at least January of this year. Some may not approve of what I want for this game, and some may approve, but anyone who has really followed my posts should realise that I do everything in my forum power to help the development of this game, much like many other users. We help each other, we help other forum members, we suggest, request ideas, some even demand, but I can't ever recall making a demand on these forums and I have never ever suggested that I would quit playing over something such as this or anything else for that matter.

This game is my life, I will continue to post here in an effort to help other players, help the Devs by giving feedback, suggesting ideas, locating bugs and making them money which they can use to make the game even better, but pretty much think I've done my part on that last one with my C-Store thread which has made quite an impact on the C-Store.
Sorry, Alecto. I forgot to quote Roxbad, I was writing that as you were posting yours. I know you aren't quitting and I know you are committed to the game and community. While our views significantly differ, I know you have the best intentions.

----
EDIT: Thanks captnwan for clearing that up
----


Quote:
Originally Posted by Alecto View Post
here's a question for you...

Why are you following this thread and my other thread about collisions as well as doing your very best to fight against the them?

I mean, what's the point? Don't you think one vote and one post from yourself would be enough? I could understand if someone asked a question or got something wrong, and then you felt the need to help them or correct them
I started following these threads because I disagree with having them implemented. I feel that implementing these concepts would be detrimental to the game and my play experience with it. Just like you, I am passionate about this game and community. But we do have different views, and whatever is implemented has to stand the test of Devil's Advocate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alecto View Post
Was a thread designed to be fair, and allow all the players who viewed it to show Cryptic what they wanted, not request or demand, but simply show.

....

See trouble is, every time they do a poll, it means they will implement what is in the poll
This, this is why it becomes a request. It becomes a big neon light saying, "We want this!" And Cryptic will seriously consider anything that the community as a whole wants. You talk about how big perception is with regards to space physics. Well I think it's pretty plain to perceive this thread as a request for action.

Thing is, Cryptic will not do what is on the poll based purely on the poll results. As they have said on multiple occassions, they consider many factors, not just community consensus. Previous polls, if I recall correctly, are mostly designed to give them a general feel of immediate community feelings on particular subjects to help them determine what the next course of development should focus on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alecto View Post
All because dstahl completely ignored me back before the original post was made when I asked him to poll it officially.
I'm not surprised. Again, it's a bit of a loaded request. If he says "sure", then it will set a precedent and more requests for specific polls will be made. Then when they say "no" to those, people will point and say, "BUT HE GOT ONE!"

If he said "no" outright, then people would likely claim that Cryptic is not listening.

But perhaps it's just a matter of they know some things should not be put up to a vote of the general populace. Should the death penalty be up to a vote? Should gay marriage be up to a general vote? There is a reason why judges are appointed and senators elected. They are the ones who are (supposed) to gather all the accurate information, ask all the right questions, consider all the consequences or implications, and speculate on future impacts and issues.

Perhaps they have already discussed this to death internally, even tested it, and decided that it's not ever happening. That they should not waste further resources on the subject.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Alecto View Post
I really don't think you get it, I mean why have so many players got to have a go at players who would like a realistic starship movement system?

Why not have a go at all those players who showed Cryptic that they didn't want any changes or the players who just want thrusters added?
Any change that doesn't make sense to me, I question. Sometimes I question that player directly or I do so internally because it's not worth the time, or I don't think it will have any significant impact (e.g., exchange listing fees). If you notice, I'm not entirely opposed to the addition of simple thrusters. I question their usability in practice, but it's not too big of a deal. I have questions about them that other players apparently have not considered, so I ask them. It's the same for increasing the pitch to 85 degrees. I, personally, see no need to do so. But I raise questions that I feel are valid and should be addressed. I have put forward possible changes to the existing status quo, some have been implemented, some have yet, some will never be. Some people have asked important questions about my thoughts, questions I had not considered, and upon reflection either change my position or rebuttle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alecto View Post
heck I would be happy with that 85* as well as thrusters and special powers to get your ship to roll, loop or immelmans-turn that dstahl suggested all that time ago and the implementation of that would keep me quiet, because I would know that they have actually tried for a compromise, but it's not what I would truly be happy with.
Perhaps they still will. And in the case of special powers to do crazy evasive manoeuvres I think would be a great addition. However, I think as it stands they have much bigger fish to fry.

Feel free to keep discussing it. But continue to expect Devil's Advocate to be played and to raise these tough questions. You can continue to dismiss or ignore the questions, but they'll keep getting raised because they're pertinent. And if someone makes a false claim, then expect someone else to point it out, or question the validity of that claim.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 407
12-18-2010, 12:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alecto View Post
Ok, just so you understand, when I'm talking "realistic", I'm talking realistic in terms of science fiction, because I understand that this is a game and that the show is not real, but many will understand that some see Star Trek as "real" to them.

So when I say all those shows are based in space and that a the ships all act the same realistic way because they are in space, even if you don't see it on screen more often then not, means I'm talking about the reality of the show, not the reality of life, but keeping in mind that the shows use many aspects of real life.
For sure, absolutely. I'm sure that there are many "real" aspects I could apply to Star Trek that happens behind the scenes. (Could you imagine the holodeck porn industry?) But Cryptic is charged with making a successful, profitable Star Trek game that is true to the IP as depicted in the television shows and movies. So if they can make an excellent gameplay mechanic that covers 99% of the bases, I'd say that's pretty successful. When I think of all those episodes, all those space sequences, I find that it feels very close to the experience Star Trek Online provides. Does the feel match for you? From the sounds of it, probably not as much, and that's OK. Does the experience match what the devs feel, or what a lot of the players feel, or what most trekkers feel? I'd wager a guess that it does.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Alecto View Post
What I stated was a question, honest and straight to the point and it was tested a long time ago before a player base even existed, at the time there were only play testers.
But remember, most of team and testers at Cryptic are trekkers. It's been stated before and is pretty obvious from their participation with the community that they are. For the most part, I trust their judgment. Sometimes they have made mistakes, and they're usually pretty to fix. But I think to ask, "well maybe YOUR testing isn't good enough, let US test it" isn't fair. Because it implies that they just did it wrong, or possibly because the time it would take for them to just put it into a testable state (see: all the UI questions raised) could be better spent elsewhere.

Maybe at some point they could throw out tests of pitching to 85 degrees, but that'd be up to their discretion. Perhaps they already tried internally and perhaps they found new issues to resolve (e.g., how the camera locks to 90 degrees vertical) that meant they'd have to do a lot more work just to put it into a public testable state. I don't know. But I don't think it's fair to hold it against them that they haven't "just let us test it" or they haven't "just let us answer a poll."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Alecto View Post
You're poll would be flawed as the results would give the same results, both options result in realistic starship movement, if it's seen in one episode, it's canon and it was seen in more than one episode, not to mention (again), that they're in space where movement is not restricted.
You missed the point of the question. I wasn't interested in what the development results were, or what the underlying movement systems meant. It was intended to illustrate that if a poll isn't formed correctly, that the right question isn't asked, or the wrong answers are provided, that even if order of the answers isn't correct, that the results don't mean anything.

That any fan can point and say, "This flight sequence looks more like Star Trek than it does Battlestar Galactica." And most fans would say that they want a movement system that feels like Star Trek as how Star Trek was depicted in the vast majority of mediums. I would argue that is exactly what Cryptic has delivered. I would argue that small tweaks to it won't change that (such as the new 60 degree pitch) and some might make it feel even more Trek-like (such as special evasive manoeuvres powers). I feel that implementing a system like Bridge Commander would make it feel less Trek-like to the majority of fans and players. I've stated my case why I think that, I've stated my rebbuttals to yours (and others') arguments, and I respond to the rebuttals or questions posed to my thoughts. Devs can (and likely do) read over all this, likely have already considered most, if not all the things we put forward. Only they've now possibly dropped the issue because they have already stated what needs to be stated; that anything more is just beating a dead horse, or worse, poking a hornet nest. I think to claim that they are ignoring us, or ignoring our wishes, or afraid at what an official poll results might say, or to request some detailed reports on the issue is offensive.


And hopefully we'll stop stepping on each other's toes posting at the same time. :p

EDIT: horray! We've stopped posting at the same time!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 408
12-18-2010, 01:54 PM
I'm not sure if anyone has brought this up yet, but so far the best 3-D space combat system I've seen comes from Nexus: The Jupiter Incident. Give that game a look, it had all the bells and whistles when it came to spaceflight and combat in 3-D.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 409
12-18-2010, 02:02 PM
Oh lord, I totally forgot about Nexus. Definitely one of my favourite games. But the movement system and gameplay was definitely much more low-key/slow-paced compared to how fast STO runs. If I recall correctly, all your manoeuvring was done relative to something else (approach this, fly away from this), not like STO where you just point and turn the way you want to go. If I also recall correctly, your weapons/shields didn't have a concept of direction too much short of forward firing torpedoes, I think. Certainly didn't have the smorgasbord of powers/abilities to manage like you do in STO.

Man, now I want to dust that off and play it. I really wish a sequel would have been made, but it looks like it's done for. Definitely a very enjoyable niche single-player experience, but I have my doubts about how well it would fly in an accessible MMORPG world.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 410
12-18-2010, 04:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by squidheadjax View Post
Are you referring to Earth and Beyond? Because over the years I've become increasingly frustrated that I missed that game's lifespan (also that its lifespan was finite in the first place).
No, if I am allowed to list other game names, it was Freelancer. MS Bought the design firm, DA, and shut the company down.......
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