Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 411
12-18-2010, 04:21 PM
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by piwright42 View Post
Bab 5 had the best depiction of space combat on TV and Wing Commander took it for games. Unless you can get to max speed and flip the nose around or over to shoot at what's behind you, without changing your course or speed, then it is not space combat.
Too damn true! I loved the WC games on the old playstation one. I even opened an easter egg in one game that played a rare cut scene, it was awesome.
They can just give us a 85 degree up angle and I would be happy.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 412
12-18-2010, 04:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solar_Searcher
No, if I am allowed to list other game names, it was Freelancer. MS Bought the design firm, DA, and shut the company down.......
o_0 That's the first time I've heard Freelancer counted as an MMO proper. There were a few persistent-world mods though.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 413
12-18-2010, 05:26 PM
Whats funny is that usually with arguements in this game I have to pick between Star Trek Canon and doable gameplay, but this time I don't because they're on the same side!

Ships never roll in Star Trek.

Allowing players to roll would just complicate gameplay and alienate those players who don't want to be playing a hyper-realistic space similator.

There is a reason nobody makes those anymore; they aren't fun.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 414
12-18-2010, 06:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aspasticninja View Post
Ships never roll in Star Trek.

Allowing players to roll would just complicate gameplay and alienate those players who don't want to be playing a hyper-realistic space similator.

There is a reason nobody makes those anymore; they aren't fun.
I'm home and I'm merry as I've been out drinking with friends, but I can still read and this is nothing more than, either lies or inaccurate posting due to the lack of facts, or a person who believes they are a fan of Star Trek, but doesn't actually pay attention when watching the shows or movies.

As fare as I'm concerned, stating that "Ships never roll in Star Trek" is nothing more than insulting and showing nothing more than ignorance.

Over and out, good night and Merry Christmas!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 415
12-18-2010, 06:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by captnwan View Post
Not to take this totally off topic. I can agree with Bab 5, it was one of the few sci-fi shows to really do realistic space flight well. But not wing commander. The early games were as basic as they come, and were indistinguishable from flight sims. In fact, Strike Commander was the same wing commander/privateer engine, with a flimsy F16 coating over it. Even at the end of the game series, the best you could do were very limited spin like moves to point your nose around, but only for the briefest of moments. It was a gimmick and not replicated physics.

The one game I can recall that did true Newtonian physics and 3d space flight, was I-War (or Independence War, depending on where you bought it) Unfortunately, while an amazing game. It was so complex, difficult and realistic that it was simply to hard to enjoy. And while they did make a sequel it was a dismal commercial failure.

Not that there is any lesson to be taken from this. One simplified, flight sim'my game ends up remembered fondly and goes on to establish a long lasting franchise. And one that became to real and ended up unapproachable, all but forgotten, and an ultimate failure. It seems the examples speak for themselves.
Good call about Wing Commander. I forgot about Independence War. Great game but it stunk till I custom programed my Thrustmaster FLCS/TQS and rudders to take advantage of the physics engine. Then I got a Microsoft Sidewinder II force feedback stick and Independence War became less enjoyable. Even with custom maps for my controls the learning curve was steep, yet gratifying. The experience I had learning to program the Thrustmaster sticks totally reinforces what you said about Indie War being too complex for it's own good. So I have to agree with you that true 3D flight in STO would be too much of a good thing.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 416
12-18-2010, 06:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alecto View Post
I'm home and I'm merry as I've been out drinking with friends, but I can still read and this is nothing more than, either lies or inaccurate posting due to the lack of facts, or a person who believes they are a fan of Star Trek, but doesn't actually pay attention when watching the shows or movies.

As fare as I'm concerned, stating that "Ships never roll in Star Trek" is nothing more than insulting and showing nothing more than ignorance.

Over and out, good night and Merry Christmas!
Give me one video example of a Trek ship rolling as a tactical manuever and not because its exploding or whatnot and I will retract that part of my statement.


edit: To be clear: I'm not saying that I wouldn't want a modern realistic space combat game, but the reality is that those games end up being crazy complex by nature and an MMO (any game really, but especially MMOs) must appeal to as many people as possible in order to stay afloat. This is why WoW has remained popular for so long; a half-retarded chimp could get to level 40 without breaking a sweat.

I plan on making such a game (though not in an MMO) at some point, but only if I can figure out a way to appeal to people like me and people who don't want that complexity so I can actually earn my investment back.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 417
12-18-2010, 08:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by piwright42 View Post
Good call about Wing Commander. I forgot about Independence War. Great game but it stunk till I custom programed my Thrustmaster FLCS/TQS and rudders to take advantage of the physics engine. Then I got a Microsoft Sidewinder II force feedback stick and Independence War became less enjoyable. Even with custom maps for my controls the learning curve was steep, yet gratifying. The experience I had learning to program the Thrustmaster sticks totally reinforces what you said about Indie War being too complex for it's own good. So I have to agree with you that true 3D flight in STO would be too much of a good thing.
Im with ya here. I loved all those games. I was not dis'ing Wing commander in the least. Wing commander, Strike commander, and the original Privateer all hold a very fond place for me.

Heck the very reason I became a PC owner was for flight sims. I still have a nearly complete collection of the old Electronic Arts/Jane's Combat Sims. Longbow 1 and 2 and ATF some of my favorites. Along with Falcon 3.0 and 4.0 the first and last word in over the top grognard level sims.

But those games were beasts. With manuals the size of phone books, Multi-page key cards. They were amazing, and fun in their own way. But fun should be about doing the mission and not about mastering the FLIR system or the radar.

And its a shame, Flight sims used to be the Defacto money maker for PC gaming. And now they are simply gone. Complexing themselves right out of existence.

As much as id love the challenge of a complex space sim. Im happy to have STO just like it is. Simple yet fun, is in many ways much better then complex and frustrating.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 418
12-18-2010, 08:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aspasticninja View Post
Give me one video example of a Trek ship rolling as a tactical manuever and not because its exploding or whatnot and I will retract that part of my statement.
Sorry ASpasticNinja (nice name btw), but at the start of the climactic battle of Star Trek Nemesis, In response to taking heavy damage to dorsal shields, Picard orders the ship to pull a "full axis rotation to port; fire all ventral phasers", which it then proceeds roll left and fire its ventral phasers.

Bet you can't find a second one though. :-P

I think the point stands though; people are focusing on a very small percentage of Star Trek combat instead of the overall look and feel of what Star Trek is. That if we did all that then the game would closer resemble Babylon 5 or Battlestar Galactica (both of which were still pretty 2.5D) than it would Star Trek. Of course, both sides have been saying this over and over again; fact is, nobody is willing to change their mind or acknowledge the reality of what the Star Trek IP is.


EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alecto View Post
I'm home and I'm merry as I've been out drinking with friends, but I can still read and this is nothing more than, either lies or inaccurate posting due to the lack of facts, or a person who believes they are a fan of Star Trek, but doesn't actually pay attention when watching the shows or movies.

As fare as I'm concerned, stating that "Ships never roll in Star Trek" is nothing more than insulting and showing nothing more than ignorance.
I would say taking your position would be either lies or inaccurate posting due to the lack of overall observation, or a person who believes they are a fan of Star Trek, but takes the extended universe too seriously or applies real-life physics too liberally or simply doesn't pay attention to 99% of the shows or movies.


EDITx2: Just realized, this is yet one more person who instinctively knows what the Star Trek look and feel is like as depicted in almost all the shows and movies. This is what the devs were striving for and this is what people come to expect from "Star Trek", so if you give them something else, many people will instantly recognize that "this is wrong." (like the old cruiser skidding turns players complained about and were fixed. Realistic physics? Maybe. Looked and felt wrong? Definitely.)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 419
12-18-2010, 09:50 PM
Yeah, the skidding Cruiser fiasco!

There were pitchforks and torches over that one.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 420
12-18-2010, 10:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by piwright42 View Post
Bab 5 had the best depiction of space combat on TV and Wing Commander took it for games. Unless you can get to max speed and flip the nose around or over to shoot at what's behind you, without changing your course or speed, then it is not space combat.

Given the way that impulse propulsion was explained to me as a teen these ships should be able to perform maneuvers that would make a helicopter or Harrier jump jet jealous. The way I see it the current "flight" system does not live up to the potential of the technology it portrays. Perhaps it should be that way as well. I have a hard time figuring out how to add slip and lift/drop let alone spin to the WSAD keys without movement getting a bit too complex for many players.

A steep increase in the flight maneuver learning curve could hurt the accessibility of the game to many players. Although it would add to some player's, like me, sense of accomplishment to master such a system to the degree that we could have actual aerobatic competitions around ESD as well as in PvP. Like Roach observed it would lead those who can't to cry nerf or rage quit PvP entirely.

To me that is the only reason to stand against true 3D flight in STO. You know, "The good of the many..," and all that jazz. To say it is not canon for starships to move like that is to admit a fundamental lack of comprehension of how impulse engines supersede the need for chemical reaction jets. Further it is an admission of ignorance of the limits of the filming techniques that brought these ships to our TV and movie screens and how those techniques have evolved over time.
Its actually sort of clear that you don't know the differences between how impulse works in star trek, and a real impulse drive.

(namely, the mass reduction capabilities of a driver coil in a Trek impulse engine).

Basically, the in-universe explanation for why Star Trek ships act the way they do, is there. This is why newtonian physics were never applied in later series, because the way the technology works in trek (namely, the ability to alter the effective mass of the ship via a warp field), solves the issue.

This has, of course, been explained numerous times in this very thread. Namely, Trek ships act like they do and have an in-universe reason for it. To ignore that is questionable at best, especially with emulating the very series such dynamics are showcased in.
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