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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 31
04-29-2010, 01:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sizman
Loot shouldnt be the only driving force for difficulty.
And it wasn't. Right up until someone had the bright idea of actually punishing players with a money-sink style death penalty AND a debuff system death penalty for having the audacity to seek out tougher opponents. Because, apparently, "want to fight tougher enemies" somehow translated to "have more money to burn than anyone who chooses the normal setting".

So if Cryptic wants to make the mistake of making this difficulty setting system about the money, then by all means.. let's make it about the money. Where are the improved drops to make up for our higher repair costs?

Or they could just drop the money-sink component entirely (or make it fair and have it apply equally to every difficulty setting), and some of us can get back to simply enjoying more challenging combat without feeling like we're being singled out and punished for it. I was completely for a death penalty and a difficulty setting, have often asked for both, and somehow they have managed to make me completely dislike the implementation of both. How can an idea get screwed up that badly?

The number one reason more people aren't complaining about this anymore is because most of them know they won't ever have to deal with it, because they have no intention of ever moving out of normal difficulty mode. They're not happy with "the changes". They're happy because they talked Cryptic into not making them participate in any of the changes. There's a pretty big difference. That would be like me saying (fake example) "I agree with the proposed change to remove science vessels from the game, seeing as I never plan on playing one. Awesome work, Cryptic!", and then Cryptic feeling like they made the right choice based on receiving hundreds of similar pieces of feedback (while every science ship owner looks on dumbfounded).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 32
04-29-2010, 02:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Combadge
The number one reason more people aren't complaining about this anymore is because most of them know they won't ever have to deal with it, because they have no intention of ever moving out of normal difficulty mode. They're not happy with "the changes". They're happy because they talked Cryptic into not making them participate in any of the changes. There's a pretty big difference. That would be like me saying (fake example) "I agree with the proposed change to remove science vessels from the game, seeing as I never plan on playing one. Awesome work, Cryptic!", and then Cryptic feeling like they made the right choice based on receiving hundreds of similar pieces of feedback (while every science ship owner looks on dumbfounded).
Im sorry, I have to disagree here. Nobody is losing a thing compare to your analogy. Only additional options that people have to choose are available. This is more options for players, not less.

I know where your coming from with the money sink, & at first I got my butt handed to me on tribble server, however I learned and adapted and rarely die on Elite. Unless something changed since yesterday on Tribble compared to the patch today(at work, not at home) I truely look forward to this.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 33
04-29-2010, 02:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Combadge
And it wasn't. Right up until someone had the bright idea of actually punishing players with a money-sink style death penalty AND a debuff system death penalty for having the audacity to seek out tougher opponents. Because, apparently, "want to fight tougher enemies" somehow translated to "have more money to burn than anyone who chooses the normal setting".
Uhmm, bright idea? Is this your first MMO? Death penalties have been around a while. In the original EQ you would lose exp and could even de-level. Many others have this(money sink) type of penalty. In Vanguard, and if I remember correctly EQ2, you don't even have to die to damage your equipment which then needs to be repaired. IMO it s not a punishment, it is a consequence. Punishment implies breaking rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Combadge
So if Cryptic wants to make the mistake of making this difficulty setting system about the money, then by all means.. let's make it about the money. Where are the improved drops to make up for our higher repair costs?
See the above dev post for the new drop rates per difficulty. And if you learn and adapt, you should not have overbearing repair costs. And if I choose to play on elite, get some good drops, I will sell them and players that don't play on elite may even want to buy them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Combadge
Or they could just drop the money-sink component entirely (or make it fair and have it apply equally to every difficulty setting), and some of us can get back to simply enjoying more challenging combat without feeling like we're being singled out and punished for it. I was completely for a death penalty and a difficulty setting, have often asked for both, and somehow they have managed to make me completely dislike the implementation of both. How can an idea get screwed up that badly?
I believe I do remember a couple of forums where you were for it at first, and so was I. I still am, you are not. Opinion. I think they did ok with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Combadge
The number one reason more people aren't complaining about this anymore is because most of them know they won't ever have to deal with it, because they have no intention of ever moving out of normal difficulty mode. They're not happy with "the changes". They're happy because they talked Cryptic into not making them participate in any of the changes. There's a pretty big difference. That would be like me saying (fake example) "I agree with the proposed change to remove science vessels from the game, seeing as I never plan on playing one. Awesome work, Cryptic!", and then Cryptic feeling like they made the right choice based on receiving hundreds of similar pieces of feedback (while every science ship owner looks on dumbfounded).
And I am sure there are hundreds if not more (using your metric), are not complaining because they like it as it is. I am not picking on you Combadge, but I think we all know your opinion by now and you are beating a dead horse. It is good to be passionate about something, but seriously, we are not going to change your mind and you probably won't change anyone else's here either. But the positive thing is that a Dev did see this thread so he saw your posts. Now if it doesn't change tomorrow, you don't have to go and post again.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 34
04-29-2010, 02:39 PM
iI think what Combadge is saying is the "Risk" is not coming close to the "Reward" and the Reward was lauded as the other big big reason to play at Elite.......

so....2 steps forward, 3 steps back..........
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 35
04-29-2010, 02:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shard-Warrior View Post
To be fair, that's nothing unique to Cryptic. Every MMO has bugs that find their way onto the production servers even after extensive testing.
Except there's a difference between what he is talking about (releasing untested software code into a live production environment to be tested by clients), and bugs that happen to be left in the code that has been fully tested.

One is 'allowable', the former, is not.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 36
04-29-2010, 02:50 PM
Worst patch ever....
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 37
04-29-2010, 03:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalo-6
iI think what Combadge is saying is the "Risk" is not coming close to the "Reward" and the Reward was lauded as the other big big reason to play at Elite.......

so....2 steps forward, 3 steps back..........

I played elite several times on tribble, then played the same scenarios on live with the same char, the exp was better, I got some blue drops, and it was a lot more challenging.

People don't seem to realize that all drops are random. It does not imply that you will get a great drop every time. I didnt get blues every time on elite, but I did get them. I don't think I have ever had a blue drop for me on the live server before this patch.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 38
04-29-2010, 03:04 PM
To all of the death penalty proponents who hate the system you forced Cryptic to put in place: Stop QQing and just play Normal mode then.

As for the difficulty slider/gear issue, the gear drop rates and quality still need huge improvements to make it worth the extra time and effort. PVE is boring to a suicide-inducing degree, so if we're going to be convinced to spend more time on PVE then the rewards need to be there, and I don't mean a .003 chance. I mean we definitely get loot or we won't bother.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 39
04-29-2010, 03:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opena
Uhmm, bright idea? Is this your first MMO? Death penalties have been around a while. In the original EQ you would lose exp and could even de-level. Many others have this(money sink) type of penalty. In Vanguard, and if I remember correctly EQ2, you don't even have to die to damage your equipment which then needs to be repaired. IMO it s not a punishment, it is a consequence. Punishment implies breaking rules.
You misunderstand. The "bright idea" (which I feel was a mistake) was in combining the death penalty requests and the difficulty slider requests into one system. As I have often made clear, I wanted both a death penalty and a difficulty slider. What I didn't want was a death penalty that only applied to people choosing to use the "advanced" and "elite" settings. What did one ever have to do with the other?

I have to ask you the same question: is this your first MMO? Because it's not often that an MMO applies a different set of rules to different people playing it. I don't think it's too much to ask that everyone be playing under the same rules, or on a level playing field. How does having to pay money for repair costs increase the challenge level of the opponents that we fight? The only challenge there is in keeping up with the repair bill if you happen to die while fighting. Was that actually what anyone meant when we were asking for a "difficulty slider"? To me there seems to be a pretty large and obvious difference between "please make the fights tougher" and "please give us more ways of spending money". I don't know.. maybe I missed the thread dealing with the latter.

There is nothing wrong with a money sink penalty. Or a stat debuff. Or a corpse run. Or any other number of death penalties. There are certainly going to be preferred penalties, but the point is that *everyone* should have to deal with penalties or nobody should. I could even accept only "advanced" and "elite" players having to deal with the stat-debuff penalty, but once you start placing a monetary penalty onto one group - when all they're seeking is a more challenging encounter - while allowing the players who are already getting away with playing an easier game to completely ignore that money-sink, something is very wrong.

Quote:
See the above dev post for the new drop rates per difficulty. And if you learn and adapt, you should not have overbearing repair costs. And if I choose to play on elite, get some good drops, I will sell them and players that don't play on elite may even want to buy them.
Let me just nip the "lrn2play" comments at the bud since this is the second or third one I've seen in this thread. I never died in any of the tests I did on Tribble, neither in my space or ground testing on Elite. In fact, the feedback I gave requested that the opponents be made more difficult because I thought they were still too easy. But that isn't the point. I don't like the idea that people should be penalized when choosing a more challenging path instead of taking the easy route. They should be encouraged to move away from the easier setting, not discouraged. In my opinion we are rewarding and penalizing the wrong groups of people, but at a bare minimum everyone should be playing with the same rulebook.

We are getting off-topic. As much as I can continue to go on about how screwed up I think this decision is (and the fact that nearly all communication on it came to an abrupt halt the moment they announced the latest change, despite the fact that there was a constant stream of communication pouring out of Cryptic the first few days the system was on Tribble (which seemed like a complete waste considering it was aimed at people who refused to even try the system out first)), this is about content going live when the developers were fully aware that there were problems.

Whether it was the nearly unanimous concerns about the supposedly improved drop rates (even after they were tweaked), reports of freak damage from certain types of opponents, bugged scanning graphics, the fact that the shield facing indicator is still confused about left and right - this is about players being encouraged to go to Tribble to provide feedback, providing that feedback in return, and the developers making a conscious decision to release it regardless without addressing the reported problems first.

On Tribble I reported that the buffs you received from petting your tribble pets on the ground were, once again, persisting once you went into space with your ship. If I log on and find that bug made it to the live server I am never filing another bug report for this game again. Because what is the point.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 40
04-29-2010, 03:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Combadge
There is nothing wrong with a money sink penalty. Or a stat debuff. Or a corpse run. Or any other number of death penalties. There are certainly going to be preferred penalties, but the point is that *everyone* should have to deal with penalties or nobody should. I could even accept only "advanced" and "elite" players having to deal with the stat-debuff penalty, but once you start placing a monetary penalty onto one group - when all they're seeking is a more challenging encounter - while allowing the players who are already getting away with playing an easier game to completely ignore that money-sink, something is very wrong.
If you don't like being punished for playing on Elite or Advanced mode then just play Normal mode. Problem solved. Solution found. Next case.

And to characterize players choosing to stay in Normal mode as "getting away with something" literally made me laugh out loud. Difficulty sliders have a habit of sliding. :p
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