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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 41
04-29-2010, 03:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diluant
Except there's a difference between what he is talking about (releasing untested software code into a live production environment to be tested by clients), and bugs that happen to be left in the code that has been fully tested.

One is 'allowable', the former, is not.
Rereading his original post, he is stating that it was not tested thoroughly on Tribble. Which is much different than releasing untested code. I am not too sure where he gets his statistics on what is tested and untested code (untested means skipped in company QC). Bugs are inherent in any program, windows has bugs, linux has bugs, eq has bugs, STO has bugs. Hell the software I work on has bugs. And we do our best to fix them and release the patches. When someone wants something new, or a new feature, it may cause a bug in something totally unrelated. You have to regression test ALL the software, and you still may not catch something. And testing takes time. Releasing means bringing down the servers, patching an bringing them up again. We are lucky to be able to test on Tribble. My company doesn't have that. We have QC, they test (hopefully all scenarios) and we release. And next thing you know, someone pressed some button in some weird way and got a weird reaction in the program. Oops bug!

I do understand that he and some others may have not liked the "tweaks" the devs were doing in an effort to please everyone, but they have a schedule forced on them that they have to keep. I am pretty sure that if they held back this patch to "tweak" and release to tribble for further player testing there would have been screams aplenty on the forums because it was not released when they said it would. It is 6 of one, half dozen of the other.

Enough of this dead horse beating. I am going home after work, gonna play and report real bugs as I find them. And just have fun, and when I don't have fun anymore I will take a break or find something lese to do.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 42
04-29-2010, 03:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PSIRockin
If you don't like being punished for playing on Elite or Advanced mode then just play Normal mode. Problem solved. Solution found. Next case.
No offense, but your solution is narrow minded. Perhaps it didn't occur to you that, for some people, this option doesn't exist because if faced with the decision of leaving the game to find something more entertaining or having to continue to play the game on normal mode (which I feel like I can personally accomplish without even looking at the screen), the option to leave starts to look mighty tempting.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 43
04-29-2010, 03:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Combadge
No offense, but your solution is narrow minded.
I think it would be more narrow-minded if I, as one solitary person, were to try and force tens of thousands of people to play a game according to my personal masochistic preferences against their will.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 44
04-29-2010, 03:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diluant
Except there's a difference between what he is talking about (releasing untested software code into a live production environment to be tested by clients), and bugs that happen to be left in the code that has been fully tested.

One is 'allowable', the former, is not.
Actually, everything was tested internally at least.

WoW has a test server - they do testing sometimes exclusively internally too (which might explain why every patch changes something). :p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 45
04-29-2010, 03:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PSIRockin
I think it would be more narrow-minded if I, as one solitary person, were to try and force tens of thousands of people to play a game according to my personal masochistic preferences against their will.
Are you calling the developer who created the Injury System and then linked it to the Difficulty Slider narrow minded? Because it sounds like you are.

You see, that flawed bit of logic you're providing there can be applied to anyone with an opinion on a topic - even someone who argued that the normal difficulty mode shouldn't have an Injury System, despite the fact that other people wanted to participate in the Injury System while playing at a normal difficulty setting.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 46
04-29-2010, 03:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Combadge
You misunderstand. The "bright idea" (which I feel was a mistake) was in combining the death penalty requests and the difficulty slider requests into one system. As I have often made clear, I wanted both a death penalty and a difficulty slider. What I didn't want was a death penalty that only applied to people choosing to use the "advanced" and "elite" settings. What did one ever have to do with the other?

I have to ask you the same question: is this your first MMO? Because it's not often that an MMO applies a different set of rules to different people playing it. I don't think it's too much to ask that everyone be playing under the same rules, or on a level playing field. How does having to pay money for repair costs increase the challenge level of the opponents that we fight? The only challenge there is in keeping up with the repair bill if you happen to die while fighting. Was that actually what anyone meant when we were asking for a "difficulty slider"? To me there seems to be a pretty large and obvious difference between "please make the fights tougher" and "please give us more ways of spending money". I don't know.. maybe I missed the thread dealing with the latter.

There is nothing wrong with a money sink penalty. Or a stat debuff. Or a corpse run. Or any other number of death penalties. There are certainly going to be preferred penalties, but the point is that *everyone* should have to deal with penalties or nobody should. I could even accept only "advanced" and "elite" players having to deal with the stat-debuff penalty, but once you start placing a monetary penalty onto one group - when all they're seeking is a more challenging encounter - while allowing the players who are already getting away with playing an easier game to completely ignore that money-sink, something is very wrong.



Let me just nip the "lrn2play" comments at the bud since this is the second or third one I've seen in this thread. I never died in any of the tests I did on Tribble, neither in my space or ground testing on Elite. In fact, the feedback I gave requested that the opponents be made more difficult because I thought they were still too easy. But that isn't the point. I don't like the idea that people should be penalized when choosing a more challenging path instead of taking the easy route. They should be encouraged to move away from the easier setting, not discouraged. In my opinion we are rewarding and penalizing the wrong groups of people, but at a bare minimum everyone should be playing with the same rulebook.

We are getting off-topic. As much as I can continue to go on about how screwed up I think this decision is (and the fact that nearly all communication on it came to an abrupt halt the moment they announced the latest change, despite the fact that there was a constant stream of communication pouring out of Cryptic the first few days the system was on Tribble (which seemed like a complete waste considering it was aimed at people who refused to even try the system out first)), this is about content going live when the developers were fully aware that there were problems.

Whether it was the nearly unanimous concerns about the supposedly improved drop rates (even after they were tweaked), reports of freak damage from certain types of opponents, bugged scanning graphics, the fact that the shield facing indicator is still confused about left and right - this is about players being encouraged to go to Tribble to provide feedback, providing that feedback in return, and the developers making a conscious decision to release it regardless without addressing the reported problems first.

On Tribble I reported that the buffs you received from petting your tribble pets on the ground were, once again, persisting once you went into space with your ship. If I log on and find that bug made it to the live server I am never filing another bug report for this game again. Because what is the point.
Yeah we are getting off topic. I don't know what to say other than you have your opinion and that is cool. I have mine and I like the innovation of linking the difficulty slider with dp and rewards. But then new ideas are always panned my most. And, yes I have played most MMO's or tried them since 2000.

The thing that does irk me is this:
Your ideas about how the DEVs ignore certain people and cater to others really has no proof. Have you worked in a development environment that programs for thousands of people? Do you think you could please them all? Do you think you could release, on time, software, be it a game or web app or what ever that was completely bug free? That doesn't have issues that will be addressed at sometime in the future? Do you realize that when you fix one thing you have a huge chance of breaking something else and that too needs to be fixed? Granted some companies are better than others at fixing and releasing software, but what you ask to be done is just plain unrealistic IMO. I would bet the bug list is huge and hopefully they will listen less to us and pay attention to bugs the next few weeks...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 47
04-29-2010, 04:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opena
The thing that does irk me is this:
Your ideas about how the DEVs ignore certain people and cater to others really has no proof.
I said this before, but I'll say it again.

I suspect that this decision was influenced by money and not so much by the rationales provided by the players on this topic.

Be realistic. This debate on death penalties has been going on since launch (and even before launch). It has always been a heated topic, and over the months as result of those discussions the developers have slowly shifted their stance from not having a penalty in their game to introducing one to us. They obviously believed in it enough to devote energy, time, and manpower towards its development. You don't do that on a whim.

And then, in less than a week's time the decision reversed course yet again. And since then there has been very little in the way of developer comments on the new setup beyond introducing it. Which is a stark contrast compared to the ton of "please go to tribble and at least try it" responses we got earlier in the week.

Let's be honest - nothing has been said in this past week that hasn't already been said a hundred times over by now. There wasn't a surge of written epiphanies by the players bringing the "evils of death penalties" to light. And the backlash has been exactly the same as ever, rehashed repeatedly.

No.. I think some of the playerbase bluffed, and someone towards the top of the food chain blinked and brought the hammer down on this debate. And that decision probably had more to do with money and subs than anything that was ever written here, and I suspect not even everyone inside Cryptic is excited about the direction this has gone.

Just a theory, anyway. You may /tinfoil at your leisure. You're calling this a "dead horse". It's been beaten to death for months now. Were you calling it a dead horse when this system was set up differently a week ago? Because apparently that dead horse went and rolled over. I'm fine with seeing if we can get that trick to happen again. If you're not interested then.. just don't watch, I guess.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 48
04-29-2010, 04:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Combadge
I said this before, but I'll say it again.

I suspect that this decision was influenced by money and not so much by the rationales provided by the players on this topic.

Be realistic. This debate on death penalties has been going on since launch (and even before launch). It has always been a heated topic, and over the months as result of those discussions the developers have slowly shifted their stance from not having a penalty in their game to introducing one to us. They obviously believed in it enough to devote energy, time, and manpower towards its development. You don't do that on a whim.

And then, in less than a week's time the decision reversed course yet again. And since then there has been very little in the way of developer comments on the new setup beyond introducing it. Which is a stark contrast compared to the ton of "please go to tribble and at least try it" responses we got earlier in the week.

Let's be honest - nothing has been said in this past week that hasn't already been said a hundred times over by now. There wasn't a surge of written epiphanies by the players bringing the "evils of death penalties" to light. And the backlash has been exactly the same as ever, rehashed repeatedly.

No.. I think some of the playerbase bluffed, and someone towards the top of the food chain blinked and brought the hammer down on this debate. And that decision probably had more to do with money and subs than anything that was ever written here, and I suspect not even everyone inside Cryptic is excited about the direction this has gone.

Just a theory, anyway. You may /tinfoil at your leisure.
Naw, no tinfoil. You don't like the changes, I for the most part do.

This has been such a heated topic that I actually feel sorry for the ones that have to decide one way or another, be it what you want, or what I want, or what Joe Schmuckatelly wants or... I think you get the idea. Only time will tell whether the decision was correct or not.

Who knows, maybe your theory is correct...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 49
04-29-2010, 04:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Combadge
On Tribble I reported that the buffs you received from petting your tribble pets on the ground were, once again, persisting once you went into space with your ship. If I log on and find that bug made it to the live server I am never filing another bug report for this game again. Because what is the point.
Update - Tribble ground buffs received from pet tribbles are, once again, persisting into space. This problem was reported on the test server. Insert my surprised face here.

Oh, also, my customized UI positions have reset to the default position with the patch. Added bonus!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 50
04-29-2010, 04:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren_Kitlor
Actually, everything was tested internally at least.
not the point of having a test server... and also debatable :p
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