Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 21 Fanboi
04-30-2010, 07:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
This is the message the Cruiser Community got tonight in the 1.1 Update: If you want to do good in PvP, get an Escort.


Its obvious with these PvP changes, Cryptic really hates Cruisers. Its so bad a ton of my fellow Cruiser Captains are doing just that, turning in their Cruisers for Escorts so they can actually do good in PvP.

Personally, I want to thank Cryptic for giving the Cruiser Community a perverbial middle finger.
I started with an engineer on an escort and ran him till RA3 and made a new engineer toon that flew a science ship because the escort pops so quick. I ran the science ship to captain1 but then the constant nerfing made me wonder... I started another engineer and put him on a cruiser he is my most survivable toon. To be honest I have no idea why you started this thread, but cruiser fanbois seem to get all the love. Science got nerfed and now the escort is facing down the nerf bat, but the cruiser still is what it was and now turns faster with the 1.1 update that moved turn from Aux to Engines.
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# 22
04-30-2010, 07:02 AM
I and my other cruiser fleetmates, compadres and other allies & such, were having an exceptionally good day in our cruisers yesterday. I'm struggling to understand where the complaints are coming from. =o

If you don't spend the points to boost your power settings, if you throw in the wrong consoles (if you don't use efficient engines imho :p ) and you don't buff up your sci-teams (carry two, fer srs) then you're a giant squishy balloon. But that 20% resist at 100 power... well. Unbuffed, simply switching to shields, I'm running at 120. That, plus RSF, plus either EmpShields / SciT, or EPS Transfer. Your shields will have huge, huge resistance to anything incoming, and you'll have enough raw power to laugh off the mightiest of Target Shields.

And if you keep your power levels over 110 when you're firing. You might not do the horribly nasty burst DPS of an escort, but personally I tend to play the offensive rather than healer role, and in a fleet grouping I'll either be right behind or 2nd behind the mightiest of our tac escorts. You can do some serious sustained damage. Power management is more important in a cruiser in general, more important this patch in general. I shall not demean any of you struggling boat-captains at all, but I think you might need to take more notice of stuff like that and where your skillpoints are. Peace & Love. <3
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# 23
04-30-2010, 07:16 AM
Ok here's the deal. If you had your cruiser configured for lots of pug play and had the 3+ RSP Battleship build, you're in for a nasty shock. If you had your cruiser configured for pure support (multi eng teams and multi extend shields) then you either won't notice a difference or maybe even notice an increase in survivability.

Yes I know 3+ RSP was always bad for organized pvp but after hearing some cruiser captains complain today in PUG matches I think I know which ones are having a hard time.

Ok so here it goes and again, this is coming from a PUG perpestive:
Forget stacking RSP after the patch. Just scrap it right now and retrain/swap out your BO's. RSP can be stripped so easily it's almost worthless and even more so when you stack them. Sci captains were laughing when confronting cruisers who haven't changed their multi-RSP setup.

After the patch you pretty much HAVE to play support as a cruiser... period. I know this was always the case in organized PvP but now even in PUG play that green circle that made you feel safe is now a big "SHOOT ME WITH SNB" sign and the SCI captains are loving it.

I used to roll with 3x RSP I admit. It was fun while it lasted especially on the cap+hold maps where I could park my fat butt on a capture point and take anybody on 1v1 even 2v1 when the game was coming down to the wire. Now I just follow an escort or sci ship around and spam extend shields in PUGS.

For me, the good and the bad I guess is that I admit, my new support role doesn't feel as fun. I don't feel like a battleship anymore. Having said that though, I'm getting a LOT more "thanks man" and it is kinda cool when you bring back a team member from the brink of death.
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# 24
04-30-2010, 07:37 AM
Glad you mentioned the RSP-stripping there, I forgot to.

Personally I still carry three solo, two in the extra-supporty build. There isn't always a sci captain around, but you should defo not rely on it for more than a few seconds breather anyway. Good to give you a moment to patch up your hull if a burst got through, but that's about it. Work on keeping shields up by any other means, and try to save it until after the sci captain's got frustrated and SNB'd you.
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# 25
04-30-2010, 08:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacituss
Ok here's the deal. If you had your cruiser configured for lots of pug play and had the 3+ RSP Battleship build, you're in for a nasty shock. If you had your cruiser configured for pure support (multi eng teams and multi extend shields) then you either won't notice a difference or maybe even notice an increase in survivability.

Yes I know 3+ RSP was always bad for organized pvp but after hearing some cruiser captains complain today in PUG matches I think I know which ones are having a hard time.

Ok so here it goes and again, this is coming from a PUG perpestive:
Forget stacking RSP after the patch. Just scrap it right now and retrain/swap out your BO's. RSP can be stripped so easily it's almost worthless and even more so when you stack them. Sci captains were laughing when confronting cruisers who haven't changed their multi-RSP setup.

After the patch you pretty much HAVE to play support as a cruiser... period. I know this was always the case in organized PvP but now even in PUG play that green circle that made you feel safe is now a big "SHOOT ME WITH SNB" sign and the SCI captains are loving it.

I used to roll with 3x RSP I admit. It was fun while it lasted especially on the cap+hold maps where I could park my fat butt on a capture point and take anybody on 1v1 even 2v1 when the game was coming down to the wire. Now I just follow an escort or sci ship around and spam extend shields in PUGS.

For me, the good and the bad I guess is that I admit, my new support role doesn't feel as fun. I don't feel like a battleship anymore. Having said that though, I'm getting a LOT more "thanks man" and it is kinda cool when you bring back a team member from the brink of death.
Agreed.

The only issue I'm really seeing as a support build is that in PUGs I'm usually the *only* player supporting. The counter to SNB is for everyone on the team to do a little healing and buffing, because if you're relying on one player to carry the team, then the team is screwed if that player gets hit with SNB and focus fire, or if all the buffs that player just put on a focus victim get wiped off with no one to replace them and several seconds before they cool down.

I depend on RSP even in my support build. Or when RSP is on CD I use 2 or 3 other buffs simultaneously to tank. Getting hit with SNB is survivable when my abilities aren't on CD from healing, but it can make me pop in under a second if my abilities are cooling down or if I take damage too quickly afterward.

It's a lot less of an issue when someone else is also playing healer, because it doesn't matter so much if I get caught without any self defense. If *everyone* does a little healing/support, then the new SNB is really a lot easier to deal with than the old one. But it's still common to see 2 or 3 players on a team with goose eggs in the healing column.

You can't count on someone else to keep the team buffed anymore if you expect to ever win -- it doesn't just go for cruiser skippers, but science ships and even escorts. Starships are made of glass, so they need defensive buffs to survive more than 2 or 3 seconds. If you rely on a single player for your buffs then if those buffs get wiped off, you're screwed. 2 players buffing is better, but still risky. The only way to be fairly sure you'll live longer than 5 seconds is if everyone on your team has some sort of healing/buffing and uses it.
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# 26
04-30-2010, 10:22 AM
I'm not sure what the hell the big issue here is. What changes exactly in 1.1 have made cruisers worse? If anything, the streamlining of engine power controlling both turn and speed, removal of total and complete paralysis from VM, FBP no longer eating away at your hull suddenly when you broadside an enemy, and SNB no longer resulting in not being able to use any skills for upwards of a minute, all amount to pretty awesome changes to me. I have seen Star Cruiser captains as recently as yesterday when I was playing my first post-patch PvP missions (had to play 9 to finally get that stupid daily to finally complete....but that's for another topic) that were damn near invulnerable. It's actually a new tactic I'm seeing, I call it the "belligerent cruiser captain". Basically a guy has a star cruiser, brags about how unbeatable it is, and gets people to attack him away from the capture nodes. When they fail to destroy him, he laughs and taunts them by name. They come back for him, again, away from the nodes. So the star cruiser guy winds up basically tying up several of the enemy team while the guys actually playing the mission are outnumbered. It's pretty funny, and these guys really do wind up going through the match with 0 deaths.

But anyways, I am not really seeing WTF the problem is here. Is it people relying on RSP? I pvped before the patch quite well in T5 no less, in a galaxy class that only had ONE RSP on it...not to mention the decreased console slots, one less weapon, less HP, and less speed/maneuverability as compared to a true T5 cruiser. Even at that distinct disadvantage, I did quite well, and not in a supporting role. I would just fly in there and mix it up. I got kills, and took a hellish beating while doing it, but kept on going. Wasn't invincible of course, and the big 3 usually wound up making me remember that painfully. But seriously, even though there has been no end to the sci vessel cry-fest, what is it about CRUISERS that is so crappy after this patch? I'm not seeing it.
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# 27
04-30-2010, 10:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GorillaGrod
I'm not sure what the hell the big issue here is. What changes exactly in 1.1 have made cruisers worse? If anything, the streamlining of engine power controlling both turn and speed, removal of total and complete paralysis from VM, FBP no longer eating away at your hull suddenly when you broadside an enemy, and SNB no longer resulting in not being able to use any skills for upwards of a minute, all amount to pretty awesome changes to me. I have seen Star Cruiser captains as recently as yesterday when I was playing my first post-patch PvP missions (had to play 9 to finally get that stupid daily to finally complete....but that's for another topic) that were damn near invulnerable. It's actually a new tactic I'm seeing, I call it the "belligerent cruiser captain". Basically a guy has a star cruiser, brags about how unbeatable it is, and gets people to attack him away from the capture nodes. When they fail to destroy him, he laughs and taunts them by name. They come back for him, again, away from the nodes. So the star cruiser guy winds up basically tying up several of the enemy team while the guys actually playing the mission are outnumbered. It's pretty funny, and these guys really do wind up going through the match with 0 deaths.

But anyways, I am not really seeing WTF the problem is here. Is it people relying on RSP? I pvped before the patch quite well in T5 no less, in a galaxy class that only had ONE RSP on it...not to mention the decreased console slots, one less weapon, less HP, and less speed/maneuverability as compared to a true T5 cruiser. Even at that distinct disadvantage, I did quite well, and not in a supporting role. I would just fly in there and mix it up. I got kills, and took a hellish beating while doing it, but kept on going. Wasn't invincible of course, and the big 3 usually wound up making me remember that painfully. But seriously, even though there has been no end to the sci vessel cry-fest, what is it about CRUISERS that is so crappy after this patch? I'm not seeing it.
as inktomi said, SNB also strips alot of self buffs, which means that if SNB hits you at a bad time such as right after you use hazard emitters and engineering team, you lose alot of healing and resistance. a good team (or just two players and extend/other heals) can overcome this, but generally speaking - it doens't happen that often.

I find that I can generally match another cruiser thats specced for damage as a healer. the difference is that 90% of my build is meant for team surivability while the dps cruiser is often 90% tanking.

Oh, and most of the heals can be aimed at yourself. With the exception of extend, almost all of the skills can double as self-tanking in a pinch. Players are realizing this and being less greedy with the engineering slots, At least I would like to hope that is the case (it's probably not, but most of us wish it were)
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# 28
04-30-2010, 10:50 AM
Yes, SNB strips your buffs. But are we already forgetting old SNB which made you unable to use any abilities for upwards of a minute? I'd much rather lose the buffs I have on than be stuck unable to use any skills, buff or otherwise, for that long. None of the defensive abilities have that long a duration anyways. And since the SNB would be followed up by the VM, you'd be unable to move and shoot as well. So basically an ability that would REALLY screw you over, now only kinda puts a dent in your day. Again, not seeing how cruisers are now rendered these gimpy cripple-boats that are only good for healing othersthat people are claiming here this new patch has turned them into.
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# 29
04-30-2010, 10:52 AM
I know I'm not exactly well known or listened to, but aaaaah asdgajhgdaj. Don't rely on RSP. It's a stopgap measure to give you a few seconds breathing space, nothing more. Work as hard as you can and just find some points to throw into deflectors and deflector field, and get those sci teams running. It's the best shield-heal in the game outside of extend. SciT2 is easily better than the top-level engi cpt RSF skill. Star cruisers are awesome for this, 2 haz consoles and a defl' field console, 2 sci teams and haz emitters. You won't be jamming or scrambling it up anytime soon, but you'll be headbutting escorts and laughing it off. Throw in an EmpShields 3, switch to shields, chuckle.

Save your RSP for -after- the SNB hits. Whistle a tune, work on your hull, decide who to murder next or just power to engines and fall back. The moment you treat RSP like it -is- your shields, you've lost.
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# 30
04-30-2010, 11:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordTareq View Post
And I don't understand why. My damage output is roughly the same, my healing is roughly the same.
Enemy player ships do not suddenly dish out more damage. I can no longer be disabled completely for long periods of time, I can no longer kill myself with a single broadside when someone pops FBP, I am no longer defenseless when VM'ed and Science Team is on cooldown.
My shields last slightly longer, although hardly noticable vs escorts.
The only downside is that an ability that only science captains have with a several minutes long cooldown can strip my buffs including RSP. Woopiedoo.

Yes cruisers can use some help compared to how good science ships and escorts are, but that was an issue before 1.1 and frankly has nothing to do with the new 1.1 patch.
Yes, you are right that in those respects PvP has improved a ton. And I'm happy with those changes, though SNB's cooldown effect needs to go, and teams do need a seperate cooldowns.

However, this Escort Bleedthrough is no different than old FBP. I just find it ironic people complained for months about old Feedback Pulse directly damaging the hull, and yet it's perfectly okay for Escorts to have that same effect with their normal cannon fire?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faulgor View Post
So, what exactly is so terrible about cruisers now?

- Escorts got buffed again due to new purple gear
- Science Vessels got nerfed to uselessness (everything they could do a cruiser or escort can do better)

I'm really interested, because from my observation, cruisers are still doing fine. Beam damage is even weaker compared to cannons now, though. So that might be an issue.
Yeah, Escorts are living large now, and people are replacing their escorts to PVP in.

Science ships didn't get nerfed. The new tactic is to jam to use up Sci Team, SNB to make cooldowns longer, and then fire Viral Matrix, where they can't use Engineering Team right away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
I think there are problems with the damage output and all that. I think there are too many underpowered abilities, particular for Cruiser Captains. But that said, being the "floating repair yard" is not an underdog position. It is a valuable role in any team setup. It is useful if someone can really bring the repairs in ship-to-ship combat. There is nothing wrong with that. It turns you into the backbone - not an underdog - of any good team.
"Flaoting Repair yards" are good for Pre-made Teams, but not PuGs or Independents. Cruisers need to be as viable for independent players as much as Escorts and Science ships.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luepert View Post
Actually Escorts got a new problem, Feedback pulse affects cannons too.
True. But cannon fire on a Science Ship with new FBP3, its not really a major threat as it once was for beam boats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by piwright42 View Post
I started with an engineer on an escort and ran him till RA3 and made a new engineer toon that flew a science ship because the escort pops so quick. I ran the science ship to captain1 but then the constant nerfing made me wonder... I started another engineer and put him on a cruiser he is my most survivable toon. To be honest I have no idea why you started this thread, but cruiser fanbois seem to get all the love. Science got nerfed and now the escort is facing down the nerf bat, but the cruiser still is what it was and now turns faster with the 1.1 update that moved turn from Aux to Engines.
Afraid it's the Escorts who get all the love. Cruisers don't. The only thing we ever gotten was a tweek to our turn rates, in which our opponents also got increases to their turn rate as well. So really nothing changed.

My point is that Escorts have an effect like old FBP which bypasses shields and RSP. And FBP was nerfed because of that effect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharklite View Post
I and my other cruiser fleetmates, compadres and other allies & such, were having an exceptionally good day in our cruisers yesterday. I'm struggling to understand where the complaints are coming from. =o

If you don't spend the points to boost your power settings, if you throw in the wrong consoles (if you don't use efficient engines imho :p ) and you don't buff up your sci-teams (carry two, fer srs) then you're a giant squishy balloon. But that 20% resist at 100 power... well. Unbuffed, simply switching to shields, I'm running at 120. That, plus RSF, plus either EmpShields / SciT, or EPS Transfer. Your shields will have huge, huge resistance to anything incoming, and you'll have enough raw power to laugh off the mightiest of Target Shields.

And if you keep your power levels over 110 when you're firing. You might not do the horribly nasty burst DPS of an escort, but personally I tend to play the offensive rather than healer role, and in a fleet grouping I'll either be right behind or 2nd behind the mightiest of our tac escorts. You can do some serious sustained damage. Power management is more important in a cruiser in general, more important this patch in general. I shall not demean any of you struggling boat-captains at all, but I think you might need to take more notice of stuff like that and where your skillpoints are. Peace & Love. <3
My ship runs 125 weapons 100 shields 45 Engines and 45 Auxillary, so it's not a problem with my systems. As I stated before, the problem is the new weapon bleedthrough damaging my hull through RSP, like old FBP.
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