Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 171
12-09-2010, 10:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerubian_Assasin1
I dont want nerfs...let me get this out of the way, i want balance, they have something which is imbalanced so introduce something into the fed stream that will balance it out..simple philosophy but asking for it is blasphemy around here apparently.
Say what you want to say in a shorter and more clear understandable way.

From what i can make out, you think that BoP are better than Defiant refits.

Fair enough i agree with that. but going with your "canon" thang Definat refits should not have cloaks. As Federation scientists have tried for ages to replicate it and have failed.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 172
12-09-2010, 10:13 PM
Didn't Kirk respawn in Nemesis?

The BoP is not OP, or everyone would fly one.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 173
12-09-2010, 10:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by evilhippo View Post
Captain Leavitt takes 126,258 points of kinetic damage from block-of-text...
Thanks, you made my night
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 174
12-10-2010, 12:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon_Picard
Probably not, but then a (good) cruiser (which is effectively the build you're bringing up issue with) is going to outlast an escort too...are you complaining that a cruiser boff set up is over powered? no?

Is it because the DPS potential is higher? Lets compared 8 beam broadsides by cruisers (mk x lvls)

160 x 8 = 1280 DPS
vs
4 dual heavies and 2 turrets
(232 x 4) + (120x2) = 1168 DPS

hello less than land

So either your issue is with the fundamental system of the game, healing out performing dps, etc. Or you're having a whine fest over a ship breaking canon (which is an argument that has no place in a topic about balance unless of course you're not going to whine at all when romulan faction come out with the Scimitar)
See when you start bringing out cruisers to draw parallels to a BOP, thats just wrong in itself, and you have lost your argument already. A BOP was never a tank period. It was a raider/escort, and never was supposed be putting up rivalry to cruisers just like you said a well built cruiser will out last any fed escort, so will any well built BOP. The fact that you are drawing parallels to a cruiser to prove a point shows the ability of the BOP over any fed escort. Also beams can be mounted on a BOP as well correct?

LOL! Romulan faction, they havent even got the current two down properly, now a third faction to break things more? You can tell me i am whining all you want, frankly i could care less what you think. The fact of the matter is it is right there staring you in the face, a BOP tanking as good as some fed cruisers while we get what a crappy defiant R and fleet escort ...If i was the only one saying this then maybe you have a point, but clearly i am not the only one seeing this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon_Picard
in either scenario it seems more like a case of you having an issue with BoP's being capable of being a cruiser (rather than cruiser ability itself or the game mechanics that allow them to win out one on one with an escort) than a balance issue.....if I were cynical effort I'd imagine it's because it makes choosing targets harder since you don't know if it's going to die or not in pvp and thus wastes your DPS while klingons have already picked off someone on your team.
So to you it is perfectly fine that a little raider is suddenly now a tank and the fact that it is capable of being a cruiser in itself does not strike as a little bit odd to you? So now we have a cruiser which can out manuver any fed escort while laying very decent dps on a rival faction escort and could easily out survive any fed escort, let me guess this seems perfectly balanced to you right? of course it does...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 175
12-10-2010, 12:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekkameron View Post
Say what you want to say in a shorter and more clear understandable way.

From what i can make out, you think that BoP are better than Defiant refits.

Fair enough i agree with that. but going with your "canon" thang Definat refits should not have cloaks. As Federation scientists have tried for ages to replicate it and have failed.
First the feds signed a treaty never to develop cloak, a big mistake IMHO

Second: Phasic Cloak which was developed by the feds was more advanced than any other cloaking system in the quadrant, so advanced at the time even the romulans wanted a piece of it and try to steal it from under Picards nose, in which they failed of course.

The klingons tried to develop this tech and so did the romulans and both of them failed. The feds were the first to get an actual working copy of it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 176
12-10-2010, 12:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveHale View Post
What would make for better balance? Each side being exactly the same as the other? Everyone flying the same thing all the time?

The balance is largely there, mechanically. It's a system of customizations that requires trade offs be made. It's not a mirror reflection but that is what makes it fun and interesting. The imbalance comes from the people.
Well they didnt seem to have a problem copying and pasting the star cruiser as the orion patrol cruiser and then adding a few pets of course on the side just to add that little bit of icing on the cake for the klinks, so i bet they can do another copy and paste job for sure.

The reason why this doesnt not add up is because you have a baseline which is just "here you go: insert w.e BO you want and have fun Mr. Klink" but hold on there MR. Fed "We are going to give you fixed BO slots so you will not have the flexibility the Klinks have or the tanking capability in your escort that the klinks have" ...is just wrong and imbalanced.

Oh on top of this we have the pet spam created by carriers which gives them further damage on auto pilot...Balanced? i dont think so.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 177
12-10-2010, 12:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerubian_Assasin1
See when you start bringing out cruisers to draw parallels to a BOP, thats just wrong in itself, and you have lost your argument already. A BOP was never a tank period. It was a raider/escort, and never was supposed be putting up rivalry to cruisers just like you said a well built cruiser will out last any fed escort, so will any well built BOP. The fact that you are drawing parallels to a cruiser to prove a point shows the ability of the BOP over any fed escort. Also beams can be mounted on a BOP as well correct?

Well.. You kinda have to compare the ship to both cruiser, escort and SV, since the ship can (almost) match the BO lineup of all 3 classes, it cannot do so at once though.

If you kit out your BOP with a Commander Eng, then the closest analogue is a Cruiser, not a escort.

Same goes for Cmdr. Sci or Tac BOP

Therefore, the correct "test" would be to pit that BOP setup against a cruiser.

Anyways.. 1v1s are pointless.. It proves nothing.


LOL! Romulan faction, they havent even got the current two down properly, now a third faction to break things more? You can tell me i am whining all you want, frankly i could care less what you think. The fact of the matter is it is right there staring you in the face, a BOP tanking as good as some fed cruisers while we get what a crappy defiant R and fleet escort ...If i was the only one saying this then maybe you have a point, but clearly i am not the only one seeing this.

And while the BOP is "tanking as good as some fed cruisers" it does not come even close to matching a escorts damage.. If matching damage, it does not come close to the healingcruiser.. Its either/or



So to you it is perfectly fine that a little raider is suddenly now a tank and the fact that it is capable of being a cruiser in itself does not strike as a little bit odd to you? So now we have a cruiser which can out manuver any fed escort while laying very decent dps on a rival faction escort and could easily out survive any fed escort, let me guess this seems perfectly balanced to you right? of course it does...

/charlimit
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 178
12-10-2010, 12:55 AM
Quote:
Really? please point me in the direction of said science captains that do so well in a defiant? I have met one, i beat him with a crappy build and numerous tactical errors in my BOP. Granted he made his own mistakes but no fed escort can come even close to the healing capabilities of the BOP
But does this prove anything about the BoP, or does it just prove something about healing abilities, or abilities vs. innate hull and shield scores?

No Escort can come even close to the healing capabilities of a Cruiser, too. Not really surprising, since a cruiser can take all the tank and heal powers a BoP can take. Heck, no Escort can come evenc lose to the healing abilties of a Science Vessel.

Each ship with significant tanking ability gets its from its BO powers. If you set it up for tanking, your offensive capabilties are reduced.

A key imbalance in this game currently seems to be that it favors healing - which automatically hurts everyone that doesn't have healing abilities. Which is escorts. A Bird of Prey can appear unbalanced in this setup, because he can simply get more healing then the Escort, and this gives him more "bang for buck". But that is not a problem of the Bird of Prey, but a problem of the strength of healing powers compared to the strength of offensive powers.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 179
12-10-2010, 01:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
But does this prove anything about the BoP, or does it just prove something about healing abilities, or abilities vs. innate hull and shield scores?

No Escort can come even close to the healing capabilities of a Cruiser, too. Not really surprising, since a cruiser can take all the tank and heal powers a BoP can take. Heck, no Escort can come evenc lose to the healing abilties of a Science Vessel.

Each ship with significant tanking ability gets its from its BO powers. If you set it up for tanking, your offensive capabilties are reduced.

A key imbalance in this game currently seems to be that it favors healing - which automatically hurts everyone that doesn't have healing abilities. Which is escorts. A Bird of Prey can appear unbalanced in this setup, because he can simply get more healing then the Escort, and this gives him more "bang for buck". But that is not a problem of the Bird of Prey, but a problem of the strength of healing powers compared to the strength of offensive powers.
So now we just nerf all healing powers?

The problem was when cryptic decided it was okay to have a ship full of Universal BOs on one faction but nothing close to an equivalent on the other, this is where the problem began. No ship should have all universal BOs, neither fed nor klingon nor romulan or borg or w/e faction they decide to come out with. It creates a situation like this where a little raider suddenly morphs into a mini tank or more.

Also i have seen BOPs heal over 1 million in heals whilst putitng out 500k or so in dmg..thats a sizable amount needless to say for damage and heals a territory where no fed escort will ever go.

Add to this the carrier spam nonsense, you get one side with the best offensive/defensive escort and the strongest support ship backing it up..there is your imbalance right there.

Cryptic sure didnt have a problem giving the klinks the star curiser equivalent with pets of course..
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 180
12-10-2010, 01:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerubian_Assasin1
So to you it is perfectly fine that a little raider is suddenly now a tank and the fact that it is capable of being a cruiser in itself does not strike as a little bit odd to you?
Odd from a thematic perspective? Yes, absolutely.
Unbalanced from a mechanical perspective? No, absolutely not.

Quote:
So now we just nerf all healing powers?
Maybe.
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