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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
05-10-2010, 09:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaosengine View Post
Wouldn't an Engineer in an escort be an effective combination? Miracle worker (situational I know) + Rotate Shield Frequency + EPS Power Transfer + Nadion Inversion could make for a more robust Escort Captain I thought. I've been seeing alot more Engineers in escorts these days.
I've found that engi/escort can work out well. Honestly, I think all the class/ship combos can be effective because they just lead to different playstyles/loadouts. An engi/escort for example may end up focusing as a secondary DPS machine, focusing on TSS and survivability to be more strategic than a spike damage tac/escort.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
05-10-2010, 09:40 AM
A simple fix now would be to allow your BOs to advance to higher rank so you would have access to more powers. A have a fleet escort and have been trying to get the right skills for my BOs. I would easily have the right skills if I was able to promote my science and engineering officers above LT and Ensign. As compared to science and cruisers with more BO slots the tac/fleet escort only gives a slight edge with an ensign slot in engineering and the advanced escort gives you an ensign in science. If you had a CMDR or Lt CMDR slot you would be able to have a better configuration and build. I hate to come up against a Klingon battleship which can siphon my energy and drop my shields in seconds despite my own buffs and debuffs. I have to constantly experiment at the skills store and with my own extra BOs to try to get the right counters that others are using in the game. Even TSS I and energy siphon I did not help. Weapons show that Cannon are great especially tetryon and polaron weapons that punch holes in shields and drain power. If someone hit me with a Viral Matrix IIII I may recover enough to attack back. I feel we need to be able to advance BO skills more than is currently allowed in the game.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
05-10-2010, 09:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjaboy View Post
#1. Damage is lower because of no Sensor Scan, FOMM, APA, or GDF.

#2. Damage is lower and players survive because of no SNB

#3. RSF doesn't matter as much because of TSS and if your RSP is down an Escort is going burn through your shields regardless especially if they're using DHC + Tactical buffs. Also if you get SNB RSF doesn't matter but you could say that about a lot of other abilities too.

#4. EPS Power Transfer is meh for Escorts. If you plan your loadout properly as well as your skills power isn't an issue. If you're in an escort you sure as hell better not be thinking you're support either lol.

#5. Nadion Inversion - see above.

Bottom line it's just a really bad combo in my opinion.

MUCH lower damage, class support capabilities / power increases irrelevant for escort mostly, and RSF isn't enough to make up for what you lose.
This is speculative, at best.

#1 RSF + EPtS gives higher resist to shields than Sensor Scan removes. FOMM, APA, or GDF are all great abilities for high DPS, but Engineers have options too.

#2 Or higher because of EPS III, as Engineers can use heavier weapons with no power loss.

#3 TSS is available to everyone, and I'd rather have EPS III than be without if both groups are using TSS. This is advantage Engineer, not disadvantage.

#4 You have greater options for loadout as an Engineer in an escort because you have more power available to you. Power is a limiting factor for Science and Tactical - not Engineers. Thus Engineers have more options here.

#5 It is nice when it is available, but that long cooldown sucks ass and offers barely marginal assistance over the duration of a match, so this point you win in spades.

There are several reasons an Engineer in Season 1.1 does very well in Escorts. It begins with an escort beign able to take better advantage of the added bonus to shield power.

#1 More power to everything. The boost from EPS III to Engine power is very nice for an engineer because it improves turn rate, adds an additional 5% shield resist, and increases base defense (all of which stack). When you start stacking Hazard Emitters, Engineer Team I, Science Team II, EPtS I, RSF, and RSP I an Engineer in a Fleet Escort has serious survivability with no loss to DPS. Throw in a Miracle Worker and and Engineer escort can survive when others can't.

Keep in mind that the difference in DPS is marginal in most cases, the difference between dealing 50K in a single pass with all buffs and 55K in a single pass with all buffs - both are enough to pop any ship. Engineers in Escorts are more likely to overcome TSS III more easily than Tacticals or Science - indeed if EPS III is constantly being used, TSS III will impact an Engineer 33% less than Tacticals or Science in Escorts, particularly since Engineers are optimal in Fleet Escorts which have an extra Ensign slot for EPtS I (~17 more shield power).

#2 Better Resists - Rotate Shield Frequency is very useful defending against cruisers and science ships. The 50% resistance to all damage to shields makes those ships, who already deal damage at a slower rate, DPS at half effectiveness for 30 seconds. That is a big deal, because it changes how they would usually attack the escort.

When you start stacking the survivability factor into an escort by an engineer you will find the DPS difference between a Tactical/Science and Engineer in an escort is marginal, at best. The skills can stack, under certain circumstances, to give the Escort an extra round of offensive buffs in a firefight, longer time between heals for healers, and other benefits that other escorts cannot offer.

I think you need to go back and test Ninja. You've missed something in your analysis. If you'd like to see what I've done to make my Fed Engineer one nasty mfer in an escort, find me in game. Most of my Klingon Science and Tactical friends, many of which are named in the best pvp list thread, won't fight my escort 1v1 anymore in a cap and hold because they have learned the hard way they will lose that fight more than they win it with their BoP.

By the way, the BoP is also great for a DPS Engineer, for the same survivability reasons. 1v1 / face to face - the Engineer Escort/BoP will survive more often than the Science/Tactical Escort/BoP - and that includes when SNB is used because Engineers with RSF doesn't need RSP to handle the alpha strike of an enemy Escort/BoP, thus have RSP available after SNB is used (unlike their counterparts).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
05-10-2010, 10:01 AM
Buffed up sensor scan its "almost" as good as APA, if we forget about crits for a second
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
05-10-2010, 10:05 AM
Not that there are many but no competitive PvP team like Section 31 or DOB would field an Engineer / Escort against each other. Maybe for fun vs. an inexperienced premade or pugs.

The Engineering benefits are still meager for that class of ship vs. decent players and are more focused for 1v1 encounters almost exclusively. Overall Engineering buffs are just not as effective as Tactical buffs in an escort for most situations.

EPS Transfer is nice to counter TSS but your team should be supporting you with this in group play.

The damage and crit bonuses from a Tactical escort make the difference in group play especially when the focused ship is getting healed and +resists.

RSF sorry your shields will not be online. Next.


As far as my analysis I base it off of the fact that I run one of the only two competitive PvP fed premade teams in the game and we don't lose unless it's against each other. Hit me up in game and we'll do a 5v5 Cracked premade so I can demonstrate.

I'm also sad to say that I have earned almost 30,000 PvP5 marks. lol


I can see your appeal with 1v1 to some extent (mainly with overcoming TSS III drain) however I would still choose the Sci / Escort hybrid in that scenario if I wanted to make a hybrid escort.

The amount of bad players that are floating around in PvP you could probably make a less then optimal hybrid selection work no doubt. It's just that you would be much more useful and effective choosing one of the other two imho.

We had a Cracked Planetoid match the other day with 3 of us using T4 ships + 1 pugger vs. a fully decked out T5 premade. We stomped them.

Yes it was a 4v5 in their favor.

All kinds of situations exist like that in this game because of the wealth of really bad PvPers on fed side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalnar
Buffed up sensor scan its "almost" as good as APA, if we forget about crits for a second
Yes and it's not a bad hybrid.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
05-10-2010, 11:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjaboy View Post
I can see your appeal with 1v1 to some extent (mainly with overcoming TSS III drain) however I would still choose the Sci / Escort hybrid in that scenario if I wanted to make a hybrid escort.
Now you have revealed yourself, as guessing and assuming instead of actually testing. A good engineer in an escort has more trouble with Tacticals than Science. If you had done any testing, you would already know this, and know why.

Your guide is flawed if it is based on the logic of being optimal in a 5v5 premade. Guides that tell people how to fit into one specific team role for 5v5s are only useful in highlighting how terrible STO PvP is because players must conform to fit a specific nitch of limited gameplay for effectiveness. The real problem is the guide is useless to the vast majority of the PvPers in the game who don't play 5v5 premade style of king of the crack rock. Believe it or not, Cap and Hold is the measurement of good PvP in STO - even if Cap and Hold is terrible and stupid in STO.

Imagine a game set in the context of conquest of the galaxy where 5 specific PvP builds all working together is defined as complete excellence. In such a context, that is either a small galaxy or a terrible PvP game.

Telling people Engineers in Escorts is a bad build is silly stupid when you have not seriously tested it. You under value survivability of a single ship outside of your 5v5 settings, probably because you rely so heavily on your team mates to keep you alive in those settings. For the rest of us who play under different circumstances, those builds you haven't tested but tout as terrible might be a lot more useful to us than the ones you recommend - particularly since most of the PvP playerbase in this game plays a completely different style than you do.

I want to be clear though - I do completely agree with you that in organized competition, an Engineer in a Cruiser is a much better teammate. My main ship when flying with my fleet is a cruiser. However, in the more free-for-all scenarios of Kerrot or Cap and Hold, an Engineer can dish out DPS with the best of them because the escort has more survivability from the surrounding factors one finds in those scenarios.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjaboy View Post
RSF sorry your shields will not be online. Next.
TSS is the favorite flavor of premades because of its stacking effect, and as such will probably be the next nerf. Hopefully all they do is remove the stacking effects, instead of make the skill totally useless. Sorry man, but I'm not sure what to respond to this other than to say even tss III isn't taking my escorts shields down in a 1v1 meaning RSF is giving my shields 50% damage resist to your hits - but then again, I'm an Engineer.

You really should test stuff before giving advice. It's bad form to give advice based on untested theory.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
05-10-2010, 11:09 AM
One more thought...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjaboy View Post
I'm also sad to say that I have earned almost 30,000 PvP5 marks. lol
That is probably a lot in Fed circles, but I play a mostly Klingon and 30K is about average over on this side of the Galaxy. I have 25K on my Klingon and 12K on my Fed.

Wouldn't it be nice to spend these marks on something useful?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
05-10-2010, 12:44 PM
Gotta agree and disagree on some things here.

Ninjaboy's right in that, tac/escort is the best escort build. In pvp, especially pre-made, it's all about burst damage. Make em pop before anyone has time to do anything to save them. Nobody does this better than tac/escort.

In my fleet, we have two of the best escorts in the game. When we pvp, my role (in a tac/cruiser) is almost exclusively to keep them alive. My damage output drops dramatically. Why? They kill the enemy so fast, I rarely even get to focus fire with them.

However, I disagree with nijaboy, in that no hybrid is great for a pre-made, good maybe, but not great. Though it's true DOB would never take anything other than a tac/escort, they also don't want tac/cruisers.

A cruiser's best team ability is Extend shields. However, once you pop that on a buddy, you become target number one to any moderately intelligent escort. A tac/cruiser would struggle to stay alive under moderate focus fire, an eng/cruiser could shrug it off. RSF plus ST2 plus EPtS would give over 90% reduction in damage hitting his shilelds. On top of the fact they have stronger shields and miracle worker.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
05-10-2010, 01:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darksided View Post
Your guide is flawed if it is based on the logic of being optimal in a 5v5 premade. Imagine a game set in the context of conquest of the galaxy where 5 specific PvP builds all working together is defined as complete excellence.
You're assuming my insight is only for premades.


It's not and anyone actually reading it or that does in game PvP can see why.

Primarily it might lean towards GROUP PvP but not necessarily fleet premade.

There's some 1v1 insight tossed in there (how did you miss this) however 1v1 isn't the primary source of PvP at the moment.

You're also assuming I only listed ONE way to spec a ship (the very topic of the post says otherwise LOL)

In regards to my personal preference with Sci / Escort as a better choice then an Engineer / Escort it's based on actual in game experience with all three types of captains / escorts in play in pugs, 1v1 vs numerous captain/ship combos, and the highest level of PvP competition current available.

Quote:

Telling people Engineers in Escorts is a bad build is silly stupid when you have not seriously tested it.
Read the thread again.

I am not sure where you're coming up with your "silly" notions.

Engineers in Escorts is a really bad combo whether you agree or not for all the facts I listed as well as the opinions expressed based on the highest level of pvp competition and overall group pug pvp experiences.

As I said before I'm sure you can make a bad hybrid spec work in the game currently due to all the bad fed players flying around but that will change (hopefully).


Quote:
TSS is the favorite flavor of premades because of its stacking effect, and as such will probably be the next nerf. Hopefully all they do is remove the stacking effects, instead of make the skill totally useless. Sorry man, but I'm not sure what to respond to this other than to say even tss III isn't taking my escorts shields down in a 1v1 meaning RSF is giving my shields 50% damage resist to your hits - but then again, I'm an Engineer.
Quote:
You really should test stuff before giving advice. It's bad form to give advice based on untested theory.
You live in your own fantasy world I think.

The RSF damage resist with your shield power up, in almost every normal pvp scenario, isn't going to matter much when that group turns to focus you.

You can pretend it does, you can pretend you tested it vs. average or better players, but if you really did do any testing you can see why it's irrelevant and rather lackluster.

However the crit bonus both CHANCE and IMPACT, extra damage (60% from APA + 50% from Go Down Fighting if you're at *100%* HULL + the -resist from FOMM) is huge.


You keep mentioning all you tests. Let's see your combat logs and parses then from your last 5 PvP encounters.

When you take your own advice and actually test your ramblings vs. decent players or when you become more experienced at PvP you will see I base my opinion on fact and real in game situations / performances.

It's easy to tell someone to test something but when that person has more experience then you, has already tested / observed it more thoroughly then you, and is willing to substantiate all the facts, theories, and opinions in game in a friendly in game 5v5 match you should accept the offer or gracefully decline by no longer posting.


I am sorry if I offended you by saying that an Engineer / Escort is a bad hybrid for most PvP circumstances but the facts and experiences by veterans players prove this to be true.

I am glad you are enjoying playing a spec most would consider inferior and are making it work.

That speaks as a testament to your patience and should be commended.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
05-10-2010, 01:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjaboy View Post


#1. Damage is lower because of no Sensor Scan, FOMM, APA, or GDF.

#2. Damage is lower and players survive because of no SNB

#3. RSF doesn't matter as much because of TSS and if your RSP is down an Escort is going burn through your shields regardless especially if they're using DHC + Tactical buffs. Also if you get SNB RSF doesn't matter but you could say that about a lot of other abilities too.

#4. EPS Power Transfer is meh for Escorts. If you plan your loadout properly as well as your skills power isn't an issue. If you're in an escort you sure as hell better not be thinking you're support either lol.

#5. Nadion Inversion - see above.
First you I dont think you understand weapon mechanics in the game, or the engineer captian skills.
EPS III increases all power levels simultaniously as well as regen. nadion inversion allows you to use half your energy weapons power. that being said an engineer captian using EPS III, and Nadion can effectivly fire thier weapons with 30% more power for a full 30 seconds.

attack pattern Alpha is good, but loses effectiveness after first strike.
an engineer however can maintain his buff through the entire firing cycle. ie a constant high dps burst.
engineer and science captians give up HYT III, Rapid fire III.
these can be replaced with Beam Overload III and target shields III

Tactical is kings of alpha strike DPS. (hit leathally hard once or twice)
engineers have a higher sustained dps and better survivablity to deliver that dps. (brute force appoach)
science brings snb, and sensor scan so they bring surgical strike capability but less survivability. (surgical approach to dps)

all three are valid approaches to escourt/raptor combat ships it all depends on your play style and tactics used.
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