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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
05-17-2010, 08:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by StarbasePrime
For example in your image you have an option "photography", In terms of defining a well rounded character that is useful to know. But, it might be a long time before a set of conditions popped up that finally worked out a quip about the image quality.
Im not sure where the complexity really comes into this proposal.
There is no 'inherent complexity' in this proposal.

The complexity you mention would be part of another system (UGC or Cryptic Developer) mission design.
Not something that I would personally have to do...

As Levi said, all you need to do, as a user, is select some attributes from popups, the same way you built your toon or their costume. No complexity.

Also, I dont see Spoken dialog specific or Text-to-Speech or anything else being an issue...

This is simply about getting specific characteristics assigned to your bridge officers (and captain) not about specific cases for use. -- Though your crew-banter idea is clearly a good use when the time comes --

---


The Core Traits and Personality Traits, might be a bit hard to understand how they might be leveraged at first, but again, put on the hat of a mission designer and think of it this way.
For the mission Im going to write will be about a BO getting captured/kidnapped and having to rescue them. I want it to apply to a BO who is $$Crafty$$, because when the captain gets to the cell, I dont want the BO there, I want them to have escaped so that it will lead to another mission objective to find them.

Follow so far?

This is how I see the Like & Loyalties info being used;

Again imagine Im a UGC designer, or a Cryptic Dev that is building a mission.
My mission is about how I need to rescue a BOF that has been kidnapped on their way back from a $$Athletic Interest$$ on their $$Favorite Planet$$. The BO was kidnapped by a faction of $$Vendetta$$ and we've been alerted through a message that was sent from $$Sympathy$$ to $$Best Friend$$.

I now how a customized mission, that is specific to MY Bridge officer.
Granted its just another use of 'madlib' style text generation, but it is still much better than wholly generic text isnt it?

You banter sets are another great example of how this information might be included into user-generated-content or missions in general. There is plenty of NPC banter when you are in the social hubs now. You wander past NPCs talking about your latest missions or promotions and they seem to have some real detail, but if I go to a vendor, he doesnt know anything about me...

What if my vendor said to me "Hey Friend, for you I've got a special deal on $$Favorite Food$$ today, just dont forget to pick me up a souvenir nexxt time you go to $Favorite Planet$. It might not seem like much, but the point is, that the info has to be input somewhere in order for it to come back out in a dialog somewhere.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
05-17-2010, 08:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by StarbasePrime
There is a "condition" as to when the dialog can be played.

Here's a few Conditions that jump to mind:
  • Beam down
  • Beam up
  • Enemy Sited
  • After battle
  • Being resurrected
  • Heal
  • Idle
Beam Up might be tricky since you are on your ship then, and not able to chat with your BOs.
Though to be fair most of these are ground-centric triggers.

Given that, here are couple more events that jump to mind as triggers;
  • Captain levels up
  • Captain on bridge
  • Mission intermediate task complete
  • Mission final objective complete

It might be interesting if NPCs banter told me of another player Captains shared interest while I was around. For example, if Im in Quarks, the bartender could easily say, "Hey you should talk to Captain so-and-so over there, you both share a passion for Gardening".

Another thing that might be interesting from a 'banter' perspective, would be the AI of BO's associating with other BOs. If Im on a mission with another Captain, we each contribute BOs -- if they happen to have interests in common it would be great for them to talk.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
05-18-2010, 09:01 AM
From post #21, my remarks shouldn't be considered too far beyond the boundaries of the "banter system" (I haven't given BO complexities for UGC much thought yet). The "complexities" to it are two fold: first is the physical, second is being able to leverage the data provided in Levi's screen. The first is mostly based on the technological challenges I cited in my earlier post. The second is that while it's easy for a human to be the sum of the attributes listed, not so easy for another human to "be in character" given a list, let alone a machine.

I really liked your post below too, perfect example of how ideas get better through discussion. You're also helping me see how the OPs "complexity" can significantly contribute to the "banter system". See responses in purple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nack
Beam Up might be tricky since you are on your ship then, and not able to chat with your BOs.
The "banter" system I proposed wasn't for a player to interact with their characters, so as the captain issues the order to beam up I don't see any problems with playing the dialog as a beam-out cut-scene occurs.

Though to be fair most of these are ground-centric triggers.

Given that, here are couple more events that jump to mind as triggers;
  • Captain levels up
  • Captain on bridge
  • Mission intermediate task complete
  • Mission final objective complete
Nice ones! I hadn't considered doing banter inside the ship, I REALLY like that one, especially with functional interiors coming! Triggers could also be fired from emotes the captain does (thought of that when I read Darren's post this morning about firing emotes via symbols in chat - what a great idea!).

It might be interesting if NPCs banter told me of another player Captains shared interest while I was around. For example, if Im in Quarks, the bartender could easily say, "Hey you should talk to Captain so-and-so over there, you both share a passion for Gardening".
That would be cool. You're right that the Banter system could be used with any NPC, that would be a nice immersive touch. It would need an extension to the condition line, perhaps something like:
condition: NPC("Quark")+Player(SameRoom):trait(hobby)=Captain :trait(hobby)
Faction: ANY
Frequency: Always
Quark: You might check around the bar, I'm pretty sure I heard one of the captains here has the same hobby as you.
What's really a pity is that true speech synthesis is so far away or you could do this:
condition: Beam-Down
Faction: Federation
Frequency: 5%
Friendly{1}: I hear your captain likes {hobby}. How's that going?
Insulting{2}: Probably better than your captain's {hobby}.
Friendly{1}: Why do you say that?
Insulting[2}: My captain's not a {captain{1}:loyalty} lover like yours.


Another thing that might be interesting from a 'banter' perspective, would be the AI of BO's associating with other BOs. If Im on a mission with another Captain, we each contribute BOs -- if they happen to have interests in common it would be great for them to talk.
Yes, the original 'banter" post proposed a mechanism for BOs from different captains to banter, but you'd need to include the changes discussed here to include traits. Perhaps something like:
condition: idle
Faction: Any
Frequency: 5%
Gardener{1}: I'm sure I've seen your picture...wait, did you write a paper about the Plants on Garunga III?
Gardener{2}: You saw that?
Gardener{1}: Yes, it gave me nightmares for weeks.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
05-18-2010, 10:55 AM
I started a thread in Ten Forward around folks building Banter-Sets, hopefully how people want to use it will help drive what attributes are most useful.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
05-18-2010, 02:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nack
Beam Up might be tricky since you are on your ship then, and not able to chat with your BOs.
Though to be fair most of these are ground-centric triggers.

Given that, here are couple more events that jump to mind as triggers;
  • Captain levels up
  • Captain on bridge
  • Mission intermediate task complete
  • Mission final objective complete

It might be interesting if NPCs banter told me of another player Captains shared interest while I was around. For example, if Im in Quarks, the bartender could easily say, "Hey you should talk to Captain so-and-so over there, you both share a passion for Gardening".

Another thing that might be interesting from a 'banter' perspective, would be the AI of BO's associating with other BOs. If Im on a mission with another Captain, we each contribute BOs -- if they happen to have interests in common it would be great for them to talk.
Some very grand ideas. I would love to see this.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
05-18-2010, 11:37 PM
The banter sets are just one out cropping of the data sets that are proposed in Levi's system.
I would love to see a formal system where the community could write and contribute to banter sets that would be used in game. Even if it weren't part of the pure UGC system, if there were some basic ideas/formats that we could post or submit on the forums tht the Dev's could integrate, I think it would be fabulous.

That almost deserves a totally separate thread and proposal itself, but again, you have to have the basic info input/stored somewhere in order for it to be leveraged in this manner, so support for this thread is crucial.

Beyond the bantering of NPCs, Captains and BOs there are some other great ideas in this proposal.

Personally I LOVE the idea of mission story arcs that are specific to one of my BOs.
I also LOVE the idea that a BO could be "incapacitated" as part of a story, even a cliffhanger.

Does anyone else think that portion of the proposal is great?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
05-19-2010, 04:00 AM
This is a system I'd quite like to see and the illistration makes it lookm awesome. The problem is can it really be added? Are Cryptic capable of adding this type of thing?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
05-19-2010, 09:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan-Jenkins
The problem is can it really be added? Are Cryptic capable of adding this type of thing?
Definitely they could! There's nothing even remotely hard about implementing the banter system (conditional upon how much we change the existing system as it evolves). Essentially its a set of conditions which if matched trigger emotes and sound (simple lookups). The hardest part to coding it (depending on how clean their existing code is) would be identifying the initial trigger conditions (e.g., beamdown, resuscitation) to trigger the rest of it. The ability to use the "+" and "-" to create complex conditions would also mean some parsing, adding to the character data to track frequency, but no great shakes.

The hardest part of the Banter system wouldn't be the coding, but coming up with creative Banter sets that made the world feel alive, Management paying for Voice-Acting, legal issues around IP with partners, and the concern over adding another few hundred megabytes of voice-data to player's hard-drives. I've been doing "old" jokes on Ten Forward's Banter Arcs, but that's just to keep the thread alive. Hopefully some of the great RPers or Trekkers will find some banter that demonstrates how effective it could be for immersion.

Similarly, coding up Levi's system to capture BO attributes is merely a dialog that adds attributes to a character (which could probably be whipped out in an hour (minus artwork) by someone familiar with the character data format. The real trick though, is how to use that data, and that's infinitely more complex.

Quite possibly though, Cryptic only needs to make the data available to the UGC toolkit.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
05-19-2010, 07:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by StarbasePrime
The real trick though, is how to use that data, and that's infinitely more complex.

Quite possibly though, Cryptic only needs to make the data available to the UGC toolkit.
As I said, NPCs already have some of this type of interaction built-in today.
You ever notice them commenting on your Captain as you walk past in a starbase?

What they lack is more content, more triggers and more keyword/interest/scenario info like in the screenshot.

Now, for Banter in particular;
I would say that all Cryptic really need to do is to define the format,
something similar to what StarBase Prime showed above.
Then open up a web-based submission form so the community can submit banter sets and someone within Cryptic could review/approve/install the ideas.
That way each patch you could see new random smacktalk from your bridge officers ;-)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
05-19-2010, 08:00 PM
Hmm, on Bridge Officer banter, I notice that what the Bridge Officers currently say, "Applying X skill!" or something along those lines do not show up on the chat tabs. So you wouldn't really notice your bridge officers saying anything unless it was a voice over. I only mention this because I recall it being mentioned somewhere it is rather expensive to have voice actors come in and do their bit for a game. I would think it would be cheaper and easier to implement sooner if bridge officer banter was text based

Also, not that I would always want it off, but would it be possible to disable Bridge Officer banter? I mean it might get pretty annoying hearing the same conversation over...and over...and over again.
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