Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
05-19-2010, 09:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathan99
Orci and Kurtzman did back away from that, saying they didn't really consult Abrams about the comic and that they are currently a "council of three" in determining canon. So it's 2/3rds canon and Abrams COULD veto it.

It's the equivalent of what would have happened fifteen years ago if Braga and Moore and Taylor worked on a comic book without consulting Berman.
Honestly I never heard that, but I doubt he would veto it, or at least not all of it. Obviously some parts of it cannot be changed, like the destruction of Romulus and Spock trying to help but failing.

I know the two Voyager novels, Mosaic and Pathways are canon.

EDIT: Just did a quick search about Countdown. Basically its on the edge of being canon. If a future film contradicts anything then the film would be considered canon over the comic.
Lt. Commander
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# 12
05-20-2010, 12:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathan99
To clarify, the Prime Universe is the universe Nero and Spock left behind and is completely unaffected by the STAR TREK (2009) film aside from being the universe Nero and Spock left behind.

In the Prime Universe, Romulus was destroyed and Nero fought Worf, the resurrected Data and Picard before going to the alternate universe, which Spock followed him to. Star Trek Online is set roughly 22 years after Spock and Nero disappeared.

In the alternate universe, Nero destroyed Vulcan and the events of 2009's Star Trek film took place. These events do not affect the Prime timeline, where Vulcan was never destroyed.
Well this goes to the discussion that was going on in the other thread, whereby time travel in Star Trek never worked that way. The only way this works is if they traveled to an alternate universe and messed up that universe's timeline.

The movie is not particularly clear about which way it happened. If they traveled back into their own past and the events occurred and were not fixed, then the Prime timeline is affected since it is erased and replaced by the alternate. If they traveled to an alternate timeline first, then the Prime timeline is unaffected.
Lt. Commander
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# 13
05-20-2010, 12:16 AM
In addition there was an ancestor of Worf. General Worf had appearance in ST:VI as lawyer of Kirk and McCoy, that could pretty match with the date when he defeats Nero. At the other hand he could have been in battle with Nero before he got sucked into that blackhole.
Lt. Commander
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# 14
05-20-2010, 12:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LotD
Well this goes to the discussion that was going on in the other thread, whereby time travel in Star Trek never worked that way. The only way this works is if they traveled to an alternate universe and messed up that universe's timeline.

The movie is not particularly clear about which way it happened. If they traveled back into their own past and the events occurred and were not fixed, then the Prime timeline is affected since it is erased and replaced by the alternate. If they traveled to an alternate timeline first, then the Prime timeline is unaffected.
Even if they did initially travel into their own past, you're assuming that creating an alternate timeline or altering history are mutually exclusive theories of how time travel works.

In comic book universes, both outcomes are typically possible, with pseudo-scientific explanations for why some time travel results in altering one universe and other time travel creates divergent universes. There's no reason why both can't be true in Star Trek and personally, I always subscribed to the idea that a story like First Contact involves no fewer than three separate universes but that after being stranded in one universe (typically the result of being caught in a temporal wake), the closest thing to a "way home" is to mold the universe you're in to resemble the one you're from.

But nobody ever really fixes the timeline or goes home. They just create a new universe close enough to their home universe that they can settle in there without disruption. My take, anyway.
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# 15
05-20-2010, 12:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCC-94699
In addition there was an ancestor of Worf. General Worf had appearance in ST:VI as lawyer of Kirk and McCoy, that could pretty match with the date when he defeats Nero. At the other hand he could have been in battle with Nero before he got sucked into that blackhole.
What are you talking about? Worf fought Nero in 2387 in the prime universe. I think you're mixed up like the OP was.
Lt. Commander
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# 16
05-20-2010, 01:14 AM
If you actually read the book it explains that it us a collection of interviews done by Jake Sisko during and around the time of STO....

The foward explains this...on page XI of the foward Jake gives the date: Thursday, February 16, 2423.

14 years after the start of STO.... Hell the first interview is with a retired MACO giving his details about boarding an Undine Ship in EV suits
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 17
05-20-2010, 07:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCC-94699
In addition there was an ancestor of Worf. General Worf had appearance in ST:VI as lawyer of Kirk and McCoy, that could pretty match with the date when he defeats Nero. At the other hand he could have been in battle with Nero before he got sucked into that blackhole.
It is true that Worf's ancestor was Kirk and McCoy's lawyer, but this isn't the Worf that Nero fought. Nero fought the Worf from TNG and DS9 before ever going back in time with Spock.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 18
05-20-2010, 08:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathan99
Even if they did initially travel into their own past, you're assuming that creating an alternate timeline or altering history are mutually exclusive theories of how time travel works.

In comic book universes, both outcomes are typically possible, with pseudo-scientific explanations for why some time travel results in altering one universe and other time travel creates divergent universes. There's no reason why both can't be true in Star Trek and personally, I always subscribed to the idea that a story like First Contact involves no fewer than three separate universes but that after being stranded in one universe (typically the result of being caught in a temporal wake), the closest thing to a "way home" is to mold the universe you're in to resemble the one you're from.

But nobody ever really fixes the timeline or goes home. They just create a new universe close enough to their home universe that they can settle in there without disruption. My take, anyway.
It's true that it's entirely possible, and your theory is an interesting one. However, I cannot think of an instance where time travel resulted in a divergent universe in Star Trek according to the dialog of the episode/movie. The future always gets replaced if there's someone still in the future protected from temporal changes. Otherwise, they operate on the self-consistency principle whereby the events unfold in the past just like they were supposed to because the crew goes back and fixes what got broken, such as the one with Data's head. Even in Voyager that guy comes back from the future to tell Janeway she broke the future. And that guy is a temporal police officer or something, suggesting further that changes to the timeline immediately and irrevocably affect the future if not corrected. If they merely created alternative universes, nobody would need temporal police since nobody in the Prime timeline would know anything changed.

In Star Trek 90210, the implication is that Nero's trip to the past altered the Prime future, but unlike any other time travel instance in Star Trek, nobody fixes the timeline (which is kind of ridiculous in and of itself considering Vulcan was destroyed.) If time travel operates the way it is shown in the shows and previous movies, then the Prime future goes away.

Further, it does not appear they ever intend to return to the Prime timeline for future movies/TV shows, so even if it does exist in an alternate reality, we likely won't be seeing it again outside of novels and STO thereby effectively eliminating it anyway.
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# 19
05-20-2010, 08:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by attilio View Post
It is true that Worf's ancestor was Kirk and McCoy's lawyer, but this isn't the Worf that Nero fought. Nero fought the Worf from TNG and DS9 before ever going back in time with Spock.
You never know, it might be. On the Collector's Edition Blu Ray that I bought of 2009 Star Trek, there was some addition footage that got cut before the theatrical release that showed Nero and his crew on a Klingon Prison Planet. Their escape and ensuing battle with the Klingons was what Uhura intercepted and translated.
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# 20
05-20-2010, 09:02 AM
i think he understands the whole prime/alternate universe thing, he's trying to wrap his head around how in the alternate universe there is a tuvok, janeway lives, worf was born 100 years earlyer etc etc etc.

you clarrified that worf was before the alternate timeline, but what about tuvok and janeway ? >_>

i'm thinking op has alternate and orignal universes confused as to what happened in which timeline, and just needs clarification... i haven't red the book though so i can't clarrify, sorry
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