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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 111
05-20-2010, 11:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacobFlowers View Post
No, its not me :-)

This is me! But I do have to say, that was a very well written article. I wrote similar expositions months before closed beta began. I'll have to dig those up in the archives.

Needless to say, I've been busy working on my response to Ivan (now that I'm back and all!).
To bad I got to this late but WELCOME BACK.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 112
05-20-2010, 11:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.LoveMonkey
If they didn't include a bunch of stuff that people say is absolutly needed in an MMO it could have been polished
Can you think of a single MMO which released with all of that stuff? Or even most of it? Because people come along saying this all the time about every one of them, when most of the successful MMOs had none of it at release - and didn't become successful until a year or two later.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 113
05-21-2010, 02:31 AM
[quote=Andrys;2690472Whether you guys had a large or small team doesn't matter that the game is just completely broken, and as someone recently posted needs to go back to beta.[/QUOTE]

If I recall correctly, the post about returning to Beta was in respect of nerfs, so yet again, it was just another whine thread that he couldn't play the way he's used to.

I'm hesitant to say, but I will anyway, in a sense, every MMO becomes Sandbox once you reach level cap and have BIS gear. Once there, there is no reason to do anything in the game other than for fun. Even WOW, with its multitude of group instances and raids, is only there to be done over and over again. They disguise this by preiodically releasing new badge types in order to make people pursue new gear, but it ammounts to the same thing.

STO is not broken, it is just short, and lacking end game content, but new stuff is plainly on the way. It will never satisfy everyone, and though I'm easy to please most of the time, there are bits I couldn't care less about as well.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 114
05-21-2010, 03:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Syrinx
If I recall correctly, the post about returning to Beta was in respect of nerfs, so yet again, it was just another whine thread that he couldn't play the way he's used to.

I'm hesitant to say, but I will anyway, in a sense, every MMO becomes Sandbox once you reach level cap and have BIS gear. Once there, there is no reason to do anything in the game other than for fun. Even WOW, with its multitude of group instances and raids, is only there to be done over and over again. They disguise this by preiodically releasing new badge types in order to make people pursue new gear, but it ammounts to the same thing.

STO is not broken, it is just short, and lacking end game content, but new stuff is plainly on the way. It will never satisfy everyone, and though I'm easy to please most of the time, there are bits I couldn't care less about as well.
Oh well ....I'm not going to agree with that entirely.
Even a big admiring fan that I am the game is lacking content still to this day.
While improving the crafting system for starters is non-existent. Memory alpha is one craft.
Now lets add about 20 more of that for some decent content and choice.
Engineering , including reverse engineering. Blueprints and Schematics, Warp Core Theory and Substances, Photon , Plasma and Quantum theory, Shields. I think you get the point what's missing.
Starfleet Command and learning that on Earth...the list goes on. And many of us have already complained about it and we hope they've heard it.

The game still isn't finished yet and it's not just missing end game there's a whole lot of Star and some Trek got left out. I love where it's going but it's not their yet.
And it's to be EXPECTED. It's still fresh.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 115
05-21-2010, 03:26 AM
I agree with what you say. The game is not finished (and take this the right way) I hope it never is

It will always be the same though. The crafting is a joke, yes, but regarding End game, ie. Raids (maybe?) 5 mans, dailies, these all become sandbox. The achievement all happens on the first successful completion, and then any future runs are for the sake of it.

Crafting is only for 2 things anyway. To be able to make something of worth to yourself, or to make something of worth to someone else that gains you cash to get something of worth to yourself. It is still nice to have though.

Guildwars was quite clever in avoiding the stagnation, despite having a level cap of 20 that you reached in about 2 days, and that was the continued aquisition of powers. You actually had to go hunting the world in order to get the better abilities, and there were literally hundreds to find. It's content in a way, but in STO, it wouldn't take away the problem of 'click 5 of these-beam up' 'kill 5 squadrons-warp out'.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 116
05-21-2010, 05:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren_Kitlor
From what I hear, Cryptic treats their employees far better than SOE.

The real discussion is why the experiences in both games are so different (for better or worse) to each player.
I'd agree. The closet conclusion I come to is the fundamental differences between CCP's eve and Cryptics STO would be the time syncs. STO doesnt have much to keep you going in the game other than roll a character, run the storyline, random (shallow) exploration and now a few dailies. While Eve has the whole time based leveling, and massive economy, wormhole exploration ect.. While Im dissapointed in many aspects of the game, I have never said this game completly sux. Its just rather shallow and very much absent in depth.

I would agree though that (and Im not saying that the recent story arc quests are wasted time) but I think like it or not, if you want to keep people playing then you have to have more for them to do in sto and certain things should have been brought in (game systems), in a much different way. I just dont think you go look at Eve and try successfully achieve that entirely here.

For one, while sto could have a great massive galactic economy, the Ip sort of frowns on the whole money thing, eve was not so much held back by that restraint. I think in that case, you go for game longevity,player feedback and whats fun before the ip itself tells you no. I dont think that was done here and I dont think you leave out deep crafting for an ip where your literalkly being shown technology is at it's peak.

Second since cryptic moved towards a huge war between factions, I dont think you bring a game without shiploss, or some form of decay to go with it, Id also go so far as to say that for a game in times of war, I sure do not need a team to do much of anything. If a war is to be used as content then you have to look at it and say, oh wow, wars are not fought by single ships and one man battles. In this aspect of the game cryptic completely catered to the casual where as eve literally gives everyone something to do and be actively involved. I may point out that people formed enormous fleets here with this in mind and have no use for 100's of members whatsoever.

Last I guess is the whole map system in sto, eve definetly has the upperhand on look and feel. The grid based flat used here is, I hate to say but, terrible and the only time sto remotly matches up to eve in this area is where you enter a system, but then... all you have is a shell of a planet, and tons of asteroids with a few players in it if your lucky.

So do you look at games like eve and take from them? Sure. Do you just take eve reskin it and call it trek? Hell no. I do agree with the op's point of view in that, yea, you probably should be focusing more on systems than on quests. Take that 5-6 months and dish something out thats going to help flesh out the game overall in terms of game systems and explore certain other system choices you thought may not have made a difference at launch. On that note, your right, they didnt make a difference at launch, they likely made a difference in the longevity of the gamers play life in the game.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 117
05-21-2010, 06:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic_One View Post
Do you think WoW was born with the budget it has now? I playtested WoW to launch. Believe me, it didn't have a huge budget while being developed. Eve has gotten 300k fans in 7 years. That's a fine feat but WoW has gotten 11 million in 5 years. This is because more people prefer whats WoW has to offer then what Eve does.


I am getting it. You're just not liking the answer. People play to the style they prefer to play to. Eve's done well but it's not the preferred style of play within the industry. Believe me as I business man I completely understand that companies go with what works. There's a reason why MMOs emulate WoW rather then Eve: fans have a preference.
Well Rob Pardo said it had sixty mil budget to be developed and unheard of sum for a MMO at the time, but regardless yeah I agree with you I absolutely loath Sandbox games, if STO went in that direction you could pretty much bet the large influx of players (Mostly from Trek fandom) for whom STO is their first MMO would go elsewhere..which I know would make the mmofringe.com crowd very happy, but would still hurt the game over all. The article was basically just another sandbox fan trying to legitimize his preferred style of MMO play.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 118
05-21-2010, 06:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic_One View Post
There's a reason why MMOs emulate WoW rather then Eve: fans have a preference.
the thing is its hard to compare the two. eve is one of the only games to let you go off an do what you want, to let people control the game yet because of its difficulty and complexity its difficult to put it next to wow and compare the differences.

eve has given itself an incredible harsh dp that puts many people off. i never really pvp'd in eve because i did not fancy losing all my hard work or having to go around getting all my stuff back from vendors. even the pve sometime jumps from easy to hard without warning. its just so unforgiving

if eve had the style and interface of sto and less like a spreadsheet, and had a very soft dp but kept the same sandbox gameplay, i belive we would see a much higher percentage of people playing it. you might lose a few hardcore people that love the difficulty of eve but i belive you would gain a huge following of the casual fans and be far closer to wows numbers.

game developers might still go with the wow model, (and i suspect it would still be the more popular of the two titles) but i dont believe you can compare the two unless someone made a eve game at the same difficulty of wow.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 119
05-21-2010, 07:01 AM
If I were to focus on one thing about the article that I think other companies should heed, it's the idea of focussing on the end game from the beginning. The leveling part of MMOs is actually kind of stupid, and it automatically means that you have lots of content that no one goes back to re-visit.

Guild Wars let you reach max level even faster than STO, but that was a good thing - almost all the content was for max level, and could be repeated.

As for EVE, I think you would have a hard time duplicating it, even if you conciously tried to. Just as it is hard to duplicate WoW's success.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 120
05-21-2010, 07:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconical
I encourage every one to read the full article, because it will give you a better understanding of why it is so vitally important that Cryptic develops SYSTEMS like exploration in favor of creating more CONTENT like STFs,
The only thing I would point out here is that the STFs they designed are absolutlely dreadful, so I'm not 100% sure that I'd like to see them apply that whacked STF design philosophy to explorations. The episodic content is rather good. The game needs much more of those IMO.
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