Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
05-27-2010, 03:27 AM
No matter how many times I try torpedo spread, I can never find a situation where it is better than high yield torpedoes.

If you're fighting 5 ships at a time, you're better off killing 1 of them immediately with High yield, than spreading that damage out to 5 and taking longer to kill the first enemy... an enemy at 1% hull hits just as hard as one at 100% hull ... the AoE torpedo spread offers is beyond useless.. (and don't say it's good vs fighters.. fighters are not a threat, even in swarms... beams will cut them down in 2-3 seconds)

Torp spread offers inferior damage that's difficult to utilize properly. There is simply no situation where spread is better than high yield... 99% of the time you'll just hit 1 target that as a downed shield... the other targets in the spread most likely have shields up, so the damage bleed through is like 1% of their hull gone.. which they'll heal in 5-10 seconds.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
05-27-2010, 10:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Sheridan
Which is utter stupidity.

You cannot engage a ship that is cloaked and your concern of it being 'abused and spammable' is just as valid with a torp spread as it is a phaser spread. Although you have admited yourself ways exist to detect cloaked vessels and those ways allow targeting locks so again, indirect fire is useless.

Why waste a spread of any kind when you can take the cloak detection skills ?

You want to have torp spread fired at where people 'think' the ship is, you can do the same with fire at will. Offer both varients and people can use energy weapons to tag the ship and then follow up with a spread to kill it.



As for this stupidity, your goal IS to detect it and get a lock because that makes doing damage easier rather than via firing blind. Your harping on the fact FAW spread will drain energy... so will firing blind. Honestly, that the hell is your point ?

If you want want these weapons to be used in cloak detection fine. Go with the debuff option on these skills.
You are missing the point, your too busy trying to argue against points and instead of seeing the picture.

The probelm with Spread is the fact that we cant fire on non-locked targets. See, you assume that detecting the presence and even the rough location of a cloaked vessel equates to a lock...it doesnt. A lock is a direct sensory identification of an object. Its usually due to activly bouncing a signal of some sort off the object and recieving it for a direct indication of its location...or a passive use of tracking emissions from the object itself. Now the thing about a cloak is that it prevents either one of those methods...which means no lock.

The Spread would be best used when one is able to determine through indirect means, the presence and possible rough location of an object without having any direct and definitive means of tracking its actual location or the actual object itself. This is where an AoE attack works well, because if the AoE is large enough, it can make up for the fuzzy nature of detecting(not locking on to) the object, assumming the size of AoE is larger than your statistical error in deducing the threat's location.

If the game allowed for this, then the Spread would be benefical because we could possibly engage a cloaked target without a lock...much different then using FAW in hopes of hitting something we have no idea is out there or not. You speak of using "spray and pray" methods in hopes of hitting a claked vessel. Im speaking of using some other means of deducing likly location of a target and then firing on an "educated guess". You speak of firing first and hoping you get lucky...Im speaking of determining likly location first through use of other sensory tools and then firing on your best estimation.

Spread lacks in game because there is no in-direct method of detecting coaked targets. You are speaking of using a skill in a way that is nothing but mindless spamming in hopes of winning the lottery(it also solvesno probelms or addresses any short comings). One requires thought and follows canon, the other only requires pushing a button after a cool down.

And once again, using FAW to try and detect or hit a cloaked ship where you think it is, is already done more effectinvly and efficiently with CPB(which will decloak them also...FAW shouldnt).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
05-27-2010, 09:13 PM
If you know the direction of where the enemy vessel is you can blanket that area in FAW fire much quicker than a torpedo spread. ST Nemesis demonstrates this very well when the E-E is able to fire full 360 spreads in seconds while the torpedoes cannot reach the target before the Scimitar gets away after being lit up.

Now... if we add the ability of FAW to do exactly what E-E did but use torpedo spread - there you go. The cloaked ship MIGHT be able to get out of the AOE of the spread or it might not.

Addtionally CPB might be a possible option but there is no reason not to have MULTIPLE options. When CPB is recharging you have nothing else to use for cloak detection so FAW becomes useful as a back-up AND it does damage if minor.

Since this game does not allow players to just randomly fire wherever they want or set arbitary range finding on their weapons your not going to get a torpedo spread that can be used like depth charges. Getting a lock is the only way spread can work as a means of engaging a cloaked target effectively.

End of Story.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
05-27-2010, 10:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Sheridan
If you know the direction of where the enemy vessel is you can blanket that area in FAW fire much quicker than a torpedo spread. ST Nemesis demonstrates this very well when the E-E is able to fire full 360 spreads in seconds while the torpedoes cannot reach the target before the Scimitar gets away after being lit up.

Now... if we add the ability of FAW to do exactly what E-E did but use torpedo spread - there you go. The cloaked ship MIGHT be able to get out of the AOE of the spread or it might not.

Addtionally CPB might be a possible option but there is no reason not to have MULTIPLE options. When CPB is recharging you have nothing else to use for cloak detection so FAW becomes useful as a back-up AND it does damage if minor.

Since this game does not allow players to just randomly fire wherever they want or set arbitary range finding on their weapons your not going to get a torpedo spread that can be used like depth charges. Getting a lock is the only way spread can work as a means of engaging a cloaked target effectively.

End of Story.
Thats not detecting..you've already determined its general location...so you are engaging it. I have no problem with using FAW to engage ships that have just inititated their cloak, because you are doing exactly what I said, in-directly determinig the location of the ship without having a direct lock. You have a reasonable idea where the target is because of the previous lock, the speed and direction it was going before the lock and the possible area it could be since it cloaked based on max possible speed and maneuvering ability.

Keep in mind, the E-E didnt do a thorough sweep, it was a very limited salvo which would have only been viable for hitting the vessel if it was very close. In fact, it would have been better if they had focused at conical area(Picard blew it with that call). The torpedo spread would be better suited for a more involved and more accurate means of assessing the target's location.

My argument was against the idea of using FAW as a detection method...especially detection through blind firing of FAW spam...keep in mind, cloaked ships can be engaged "directly" up to 3-4 secs after a ship inititates the cloak...so even what you saw with the E-E is pretty much already happening in game.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
05-28-2010, 01:57 AM
i wanna program my torps. heat seaking torpedo anyone?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
05-28-2010, 10:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by matteo716 View Post
i wanna program my torps. heat seaking torpedo anyone?
Heat is EM radiation...cloaks would already conceal it. Apparently exhaust gases from the cloaked ship is still very difficult to detect, or has been resolved since no one has ever made use engine emissions to track a cloaked vessel since the unfortunate demise of Gen. Chang in the prototype BoP.

The fact that a special probe had to be mated to the torpedo in order to track those emissions suggest that ship sensors are ill-equipped to be able to detect these emissions from range(perhaps it requires actual collection of or collision with the particles and not just detection of radiation emissions). Sort of consider tracking exhaust emissions like following a scent trail...you cant detect and follow the trail unless you actually get into it. This may also explain why the torpedo fired flew out and then began to "snake" about on its track to the target...it had to intercept the trail and like a shark following a blood trail, had to weave back and forth detecting emission concentrations to realize when it was drifting away frrm the trail in order to make course corrections back on track....but that required actually being in the emission.

Also keep in mind, a wake homing torpedo(basically what this was...they've been around since World War II) could just as easily intercept a trail and turn up it instead of down it and head away from the target too. Remember, its just following a trail, not the target, it has no idea which way is the right way to go.

Also, all ships emitt exhuast trails, and without detailed information of the exhaust signature of the target, you'd be shooting in the dark if you try and isolate a search parameter, or risking an imapct on a friendly ship in the area if you set the parameters too broad...technically, you'd even risk it tracking your own ship if you had been maneuvering wildly in the area in the course of battle before firing the gas seeker.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
05-28-2010, 02:15 PM
rather than try to argue about stuff that has already been hashed out here to death anyway, ill give my contrarian point of view.

i think the damage and mechanic from torp spread is fine as is... that said, in the shows/movies, it was only meant as a sort of "wall of fire" or an area affect, sort of like suppresive fire, but for space. it wasnt really meant to actually KILL or DISABLE the opponent, that was meant for TARGETED subsystem damage, or outright to blow it to kingdom come when it was already disabled.

in game, it rarely works like this, with the exception of it being used as a "wall of fire". if your opponent is dumb enough to fly into, or even near the spread of torps, then they get what they deserve. (in pvp this likely wont happen, like the OP said, they seem to fly to where the enemy has BEEN, not actively SEEK them out, a smart player wont let himselve get into a position where multiple torps in a spread effectively strips his shields from multiple sides. hes going to MOVE out of the way of the torp if possible. it will become obvious to the enemy if it is a spread or a volley of HYT pretty quickly, as one seeks them out, the other doesnt.)

granted, the way it works now it SEEMS broken, but in reality, its not, the GAME MECHANICS are broken around the skill. my advice would be to just go with HYT instead of spread, and just focus on the toughest opponent (read: hardest hitting) first, and then work on the rest as needed. try to hold off on firing the HYT'ed torp until you CONFIRM the shield is down. maximizes damage that way.

you could also think of them like this... HYT is a sniper shot, spread is area-of-effect suppression fire.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
05-28-2010, 02:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by avirnig View Post
granted, the way it works now it SEEMS broken, but in reality, its not, the GAME MECHANICS are broken around the skill.
Nailed it...

The only way Spread could be made effective with the current detection model would be if you could bore fire it or fire it down a bearing and then have it detonate on imapct with anything and/or allow us to trigger the detonation ourselves before it timed out at 20-25km and detonates itself.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
05-30-2010, 04:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by avirnig View Post
rather than try to argue about stuff that has already been hashed out here to death anyway, ill give my contrarian point of view.

i think the damage and mechanic from torp spread is fine as is... that said, in the shows/movies, it was only meant as a sort of "wall of fire" or an area affect, sort of like suppresive fire, .
I think "suppressive" fire would be a good role for torpedo spread (and possibly even beam fire at will). Anyone caught in the blast could a damage or accuracy debuff, that makes him less dangerous. Making it more important to not stay together. Which makes the choice between focusing fire on one shield facing or spreading about more difficult and interesting.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
05-30-2010, 09:47 PM
Well, being a person who uses torps a lot.

The TS feature is actually designed as intended.

After much firiing of this technique, I noted the shape of the area that torps angle to.

A triangle size is formed (without doing the random multi-many torps burst sometimes). And if timed correctly (against a moving target), the ship in question can be brackted quite hard, if too their shields are down quite a bit as well.

The best range of this effect is at 4 to 3km range or less to get the full effect.

Second, the 'tracker system' is shut off, due to the fact that each torp is going to do their normal 'max' yield of explosion to a given area. (Hence no lock per se)

Now with TY, not too long ago I was fighting a PC Kligon ship while doing a mission in a BORG shipyard. while being 'harassed' to death, my ship stayed alive long enough to notice a couple of things.

TS works very well at shorter ranges then longer.

TY can hit a cloak ship, just after it just cloaked. I saw that happened when I was able to returned fire, when the phasers cut down the shields and was hitting the hull hard, 2 seconds later it went cloaked, 3 to 5 seconds in total. I watched the torps curved to the right and flashed up as they hit something.

That was not a bug, they literally tracked the last known position and they impacted

A rare event I must say myself

Not to sound that a great idea is for naught. But the morale of the tale is just this.

Each technique of torp use has it's own strength & weaknesses...the only challenge from them is. How do you turn a weakness to a strength and it keep effective as long as you can, until someone else one day...turn it into yesterday's news.

Until then...just work it as much as you can.
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