Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
06-06-2010, 01:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by superchum View Post
Nope.

Sorry. It was a nice read. But again, framing the change around the word "worthless" is definitely a reactionary tactic that has little use to any sort of meaningful discussion.
Whether you agree or not that the skill which I would no longer to be a skill of any worth (thus no longer using) still has some marginal worth is i guess debatable, however I will argue that it has its uses in a meaningful discussion.

First it does its job of getting people to read and agree or disagree with my opinion.

Second, I would think it is a better attention grabber then something like not worth as much or not as good.

Third, given how many post are made a day i would argue that one would need the first two in order to perhaps get a dev or someone like that to read this.

But, i will agree if people use the word too much its value does decrease, however i will restate that as its use has dwindled to such a low value that other skill are now much more appealing then it, i would deem it to be quite very much so worthless.

Now if you want to argue semantics and which words might be better to use instead thats fine, but I would rather do that in PMs.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
06-06-2010, 01:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurrican View Post
But, i will agree if people use the word too much its value does decrease,.
Count the number of thread that are currently using it in its title. And cross reference that with the number of those threads containing content that is a reactionary complaint to a change made in a patch to a specific thing the thread is calling worthless.

Which, as I said ... is the crux of my pet peeve.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
06-06-2010, 01:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by superchum View Post
Count the number of thread that are currently using it in its title. And cross reference that with the number of those threads containing content that is a reactionary complaint to a change made in a patch to a specific thing the thread is calling worthless.

Which, as I said ... is the crux of my pet peeve.
In total reactions to change with the title as worthless....um 3 including this one.

http://forums.startrekonline.com/sea...3004&pp=&page=

There are a page + 1 threads about things being worthless and having worthless in the title. Of those half are before the actual release. Of those half are complaining about items, BOs, etc.

I mean if you want to count someone complaining about tricolbolts, crits not stacking, how valor sucks, etc go ahead but the only ones that meet your requirement of having title as worhtless and being a reactionary complaint to a change due to a patch or something is 3.

I would argue that 3 is not a number that would make the word worthless have no meaning.

I mean 10-20 sure maybe but 3 i think is a bit low imo.

But getting back to my framing of cruiser captains tell me what i am doing wrong then.

(power levels might be off by 1 as i sometimes changed between a BO with the efficiency trait and one that didnt have it)

I have 64/74 (106 with EPtS 2)/47/105 as a support role.

Max aux as the best healing is now in aux.
So, i have APtS 3, RSP 2 (or aceton field 1), EPtS2, EPtS1
Then Eng team 1, Extend shields and extend shields 2.
And then transfer shield strength 1 and 2

This set up is meant to maximize your support abilities to support shields( as what it use to take with just extend shields alone) so max aux and then the rest in shields to use the marginally useful (imo worhtless) ability extend shields.

With only 64 weapon energy I would not recommend anyone using mroe then 2-3 beams as your damage at less then 50 weapon power is quite low.

Now the hull healing build which abandons the worthless ability extend shields is more appealing but your survival is less imo as you have less shield power

80 (105 with EPtW) /58/ 47/ 105

APtS 3, RSP 2, EPtW 1 and 2
Eng team 1 and 2 and then maybe aceton field1 (not an eng or would take ET3)
Hazards 1 and 2

I will admit this build isnt too bad for a support attacker role but it is quite inferior to the past build using the past extend shields and also not as effective.

As referance,

Where as in the past i was 80 (105 with EPtW 2)/120/48/48

I would be able to run 6 beams + support a ship with extend shields so i could still do some decent damage and still keep another ship up.

Please let me know why you think i have framed this incorrectly. I mean i could use different eng consoles to boost my weapon power but that would still be in my range of 2-4 beams while still using extend shields.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
06-06-2010, 03:12 AM
i still dont get the problem with it being reduced. before the patch the power made no sense. how excatly does me extending my shields (which in theory still cover my ship too) suddenly start regeneratig 10 times faster then they would just on my ship, and this extra regen only applys tot he ship im extending my shields too (butnot my own which the shields are still shielding).

sure it was great for pvp, damn right over powered in a skilled group. (ever see an entire team chain extend on each other?) it was just insane.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
06-06-2010, 07:59 AM
Ignoring PVP (because in my opinion that shouldn't be the focus on an MMO), I have to agree with the original poster. I loved tottling around in my cruiser and playing a supporting role, tossing out engineering teams, extend shields, and science teams to keep my more fragile teammates up and running in PvE. I loved coming to help when they were having trouble with certain enemies while soloing.

I just tried out these new changes, and I really feel like my role as a supporting ship have been severely diminished. Sure, extend shields was kind of overpowered (if the enemy does absolutely nothing to counteract it), but so is the Borg Shield Neutralizer which seems to be spammable non-stop, unlike extend shields which has a shared cooldown and everything. Considering the absurd difficulty of the STFs (I'm a casual gamer mind you, I don't have elite skills and I don't really have the time to develop knife-edge reflexes and a tactical mind), these support power changes are going to make them a LOT more frustrating for me and my friends than they already are. Please don't tell me to go and read guides or that we're doing things wrong. We've read guides, and I want to emphasize that we are casual gamers who aren't trying to match our skills against other players competitively. We just want to team up, flying around and blow up bad guys. I feel that proving one's elite factor should come from PvP, not PvE.

I was following a Klingon BoP around in a borg deep space encounter and threw all of my healing powers at it that I could, and I couldn't keep it alive. With the damage resist sucked away from engineering team, I couldn't keep myself alive. I've read people saying that they have better survivability and whatnot, and I'm curious what they're doing that I'm doing wrong. The cooldowns don't seem to be any better to offset these changes... they seem like they're the same to me.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
06-06-2010, 10:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by matteo716 View Post
i still dont get the problem with it being reduced. before the patch the power made no sense. how excatly does me extending my shields (which in theory still cover my ship too) suddenly start regeneratig 10 times faster then they would just on my ship, and this extra regen only applys tot he ship im extending my shields too (butnot my own which the shields are still shielding).

sure it was great for pvp, damn right over powered in a skilled group. (ever see an entire team chain extend on each other?) it was just insane.
And the current version does make sense? Somehow i extend my shields to my friend and he has more resistance, dont mind that when he gets hit my shields are not going down either as one would think that would be the effect if one were to really extend shields. Or transfer shield strength. Why is it that when i transfer the strength of my shields which, i am guessing thats suppose to be shield power, does it start heal my friends shields instead of just adding to his shield power. I mean all i am doing is transferring power to his shield system. Or when i do transfer shield strength why does my own not get weaker?

One phrase that cryptic used they would rather the game to be more fun than accurate and those two examples are just the beginning of a very long list where they choose fun over accurate so i do not think that is a valid argument.

As for pvp it is true that extend shields was quite powerful against pugs, however against a good skilled group it was actualy quite paper thin.

For example, i would cast it on a carrier (klingon side) and watch as a escort was still able to punch through it. The carier given its huge hull points would slowly start to die. However if it was 2 or more escorts or escort + basically any ship the carrier was now in trouble.

Also there were many ways of countering extend shields. The obvious ones are like SNB and TSS. The more creative ones were repulsor beams and photonic shockwave.

As overpowered as it seemed if an escort could still punch through it and it had quite a number of ways to counter it then it wasn't an I win button imo. Now its more like a ...did that actually do anything button.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
06-08-2010, 02:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by superchum View Post
Nope. All you've done is demonstrate it has less worth than it did previously.

That doesn't demonstrate it now lacks worth completely.

There is a difference.

The context of the current power within the framework of other changes (read: The change to Emergency Power to Shields) means that things are not quite as you present them to be.

Especially for cruiser captains.

Sorry. It was a nice read. But again, framing the change around the word "worthless" is definitely a reactionary tactic that has little use to any sort of meaningful discussion.
Indeed. Before the skills was uber and a bit imbalanced. Now it is merely "good"
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
06-08-2010, 02:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurrican View Post
And the current version does make sense? Somehow i extend my shields to my friend and he has more resistance, dont mind that when he gets hit my shields are not going down either as one would think that would be the effect if one were to really extend shields. Or transfer shield strength. Why is it that when i transfer the strength of my shields which, i am guessing thats suppose to be shield power, does it start heal my friends shields instead of just adding to his shield power. I mean all i am doing is transferring power to his shield system. Or when i do transfer shield strength why does my own not get weaker?

One phrase that cryptic used they would rather the game to be more fun than accurate and those two examples are just the beginning of a very long list where they choose fun over accurate so i do not think that is a valid argument.

As for pvp it is true that extend shields was quite powerful against pugs, however against a good skilled group it was actualy quite paper thin.

For example, i would cast it on a carrier (klingon side) and watch as a escort was still able to punch through it. The carier given its huge hull points would slowly start to die. However if it was 2 or more escorts or escort + basically any ship the carrier was now in trouble.

Also there were many ways of countering extend shields. The obvious ones are like SNB and TSS. The more creative ones were repulsor beams and photonic shockwave.

As overpowered as it seemed if an escort could still punch through it and it had quite a number of ways to counter it then it wasn't an I win button imo. Now its more like a ...did that actually do anything button.
Actually.. Extend shields the skill refers to literally extending your shields to cover the other person. If this skill was accurate then any damage the "healed" person would take would go directly onto your shields and leave the other person unscathed. A bit like a bodyguard throwing themselves in front of a bullt shouting "NOOOOoooooooo!"
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
06-08-2010, 06:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bomber482 View Post
Ignoring PVP (because in my opinion that shouldn't be the focus on an MMO), I have to agree with the original poster. I loved tottling around in my cruiser and playing a supporting role, tossing out engineering teams, extend shields, and science teams to keep my more fragile teammates up and running in PvE. I loved coming to help when they were having trouble with certain enemies while soloing.

I just tried out these new changes, and I really feel like my role as a supporting ship have been severely diminished. Sure, extend shields was kind of overpowered (if the enemy does absolutely nothing to counteract it), but so is the Borg Shield Neutralizer which seems to be spammable non-stop, unlike extend shields which has a shared cooldown and everything. Considering the absurd difficulty of the STFs (I'm a casual gamer mind you, I don't have elite skills and I don't really have the time to develop knife-edge reflexes and a tactical mind), these support power changes are going to make them a LOT more frustrating for me and my friends than they already are. Please don't tell me to go and read guides or that we're doing things wrong. We've read guides, and I want to emphasize that we are casual gamers who aren't trying to match our skills against other players competitively. We just want to team up, flying around and blow up bad guys. I feel that proving one's elite factor should come from PvP, not PvE.

I was following a Klingon BoP around in a borg deep space encounter and threw all of my healing powers at it that I could, and I couldn't keep it alive. With the damage resist sucked away from engineering team, I couldn't keep myself alive. I've read people saying that they have better survivability and whatnot, and I'm curious what they're doing that I'm doing wrong. The cooldowns don't seem to be any better to offset these changes... they seem like they're the same to me.

I see this a lot, and had the same complaint myself at first.

The most important thing to realize is that engi team isn't a sustained heal anymore. In the past it healed hull dmg and gave a 40%+ dmg resist buff. Today, your healing is tied to your aux to X abilities and they work AMAZINGLY well.

Your main heal these days is going to be aux to Structural. the basic version 1 will heal for about 2.5k, and provide you with 40%+ dmg resists. The key is, you can do this every 15 seconds. While it doesn't sound like much healing, it is the dmg resists that actually keep you alive more than the healing. If you pair this with Hazard Emitters (which also increases in potency based on your aux level!) then you can create a nice dmg resits/healing front.

Engi team is not a primary heal anymore. It is a burst heal to get your hull up fairly quickly, so I consider it an emergency heal rather than a primary heal. Since Engi team is based on your crew amount and your hull repair boxes, it can vary in effectiveness greatly base don how much crew you lose in a fight.

Lastly, I cannot stress enough on this point: be sure to get 1 version of Emergency Power to Aux. Boosting your aux power by 25-30 for 30 seconds is crucial to creating effective healing...especially since heals rely on your aux rating so heavily. The benefit of having this skill is you do not have to re-allocate power from weapons or shields in order to put up a high powered healing front..having that 30 second boost to those abilities does that for you! Combine this with EPS power transfer (engi captain ability) for rotation...and well you got a really nice rotation for a fight to keep your aux above 75+ without ever having a setting above 25!

My default aux setting is 25. After skill boxes it sits at 52 without using any BO or captain skills. The key is to take those auxillary skill boxes a bit more seriously than we ahve in the past since aux as a whole is THAT much more important.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
06-08-2010, 09:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekkameron View Post
Indeed. Before the skills was uber and a bit imbalanced. Now it is merely "good"
That is your opinion, but tell me what is your build for a support attacker cruiser? It use to be pretty simple and now not so much if you still want to use extend shields.

Also please explain why you think it is good now please.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:57 PM.