Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
The slow death of science...

Summary pre 1.1
The fun powers had mostly been killed by the console nerf, but some remained. SCI SHIPS WERE OVERPOWERED ONLY WHEN FACING ENEMIES THAT DID NOT KNOW HOW TO USE THEIR SHIPS/SKILLS!

Enter Patch 1.1=
console nerf+Patch 1.1 took most of the fun out of being sci. SCI SHIPS BECAME A LOT WEAKER THAN THE OTHER CLASSES IN PvE AND PVP.

Summary pre 1.2
Science ships were able to hold their own in Elite explores and STFs, but were clearly underpowered in PvP since patch 1.1. Do NOT argue this, I could do PvP sort of ok in my cruiser, but in the Sci ship i got killed over and over. The difference was also obvious in explores, as i would use twice the time with the sci ship compared to cruiser. Trust me, i've tried all kinds of builds and spent a fortune in real money in respeccing for them.

Enter patch 1.2=
The last of the cool/fun abilities disappeared. Sci ship total DoT finally dropped below the regen rate of strong enemies in Explores... TSS were improved a bit, but not to the extent of being a valuable power, Hazard emitters got CD that made it less usefull, Sci team got less effective. In total, healing ability went down. The abilities that kept us alive were nerfed away. JS became useless, and a lot of enemies are now HIGHLY resistant to SS.

All this while, the PvE's abilities (not DPS) have skyrocketed in efficiency. They are so EXTREMELY overpowered many of them are almost one-shot to kill you. I'll give details if asked.

So, let's look at the big picture:

Nerf consoles= A step in the wrong direction, as consoles do so wery little anyway.
Patch 1.1 = Another step in the wrong direction.
Patch 1.2 = Another step in the wrong direction.

Patch 1.2 has limited the gap between Escort and Cruiser in PvP, but has made Sci-ships even more useless than before in PvP and STF/team actions... and completely useless in solo-missions... GOOD JOB BALANCING CRYPTIC! just balance me into oblivion...

The only reason i'm still here is the hope that "maybe in the next patch they will have realized their mistakes and go back on them" but NOOOO, they just make it WORSE! Being a sci is no longer fun at all! I stay in the game because i've got a lot of people i like playing with and because i'm a Trek fan at heart, but when the game is no longer fun that will only help so much...


And as a preemptive strike at those who will disagree with me:

1. I have other captains with other skills, and beeing Sci in PvP has been useless in comparison as of patch 1.1!
2. No, a sci ships primary role is NOT supposed to be healing! In Star Trek most of the healing is done by Cruisers because they have power to spare, while Science ships have limited power and do mostly Crowd Control and other tasks requiring spezialized equipment. This game IS called Star Trek Online? Right?


As my subscription will still be running for a while before next renewal, I will hang in for a while longer, but unless Sci ships somehow become fun before the next payment is due, i am out of here... and so are a lot of other sci-captains.. There's a limit to how much abuse i'm willing to pay for!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
06-06-2010, 02:45 PM
I respect your opinion and your post dude, I really do. there there are people on these forums that don't give a **** and will still flame you to oblivion. Just a heads up. Brace yourself.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
06-06-2010, 05:14 PM
I'm mixed on this yet as a sci/sci. In PVP I definitely feel squishier, while also doing much less damage. Not a good feeling. I haven't done enough STFs to get a feel for how that has changed, but honestly, its PVE.

About the only potential issue is KA because of the timer, where you need healing, but can't afford to skimp on damage either. But I don't sit for hours trying to get a team for that either.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
06-06-2010, 05:24 PM
Disagree with OPs experiences; suggestion that the problem lies between keyboard and chair.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
06-07-2010, 09:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miiru
Disagree with OPs experiences; suggestion that the problem lies between keyboard and chair.
I second this belief as I have been constantly VM'ed & SNB'ed very effectively in PvP by science vessels. If science can't take advatange of the largish amount of lockdown these two abilites put on an opponent, then the problems lies between the keyboard and chair.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
06-07-2010, 10:44 AM
I doubt very much that you have been 'VMd effectively', since VM is now mostly useless. That didn't happen in 1.2, though.

SNB is a Science Captain skill and therefore outside the purview of this discussion.

To the OP: Science got a gigantic buff in 1.2, it just wasn't to the powers that you seemed to think needed buffing. Science Vessels are very effective support / disruption right now (and make extremely good pure healers as well). What they can no longer do, which is a legitimate complaint, is CC or disable attackers in the way they used to with SNB and VM. They've also lost some offense with the change to FBP.

Regardless, 1.2 was not a nerf to Science in any way. Some very weak powers got small buffs (Tykens). Some very strong powers got nerfed (Jam Sensors). In the aggregate, Science ships are now excellent healers and decent disruption / support via Scramble Sensors, Tractor Beam, Tractor Beam Repulsor, Tykens, etc.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
06-07-2010, 11:08 AM
Agree with the posters above - sci/sci is quite powerful in 1.2 PvP, when fighting normal teams (i.e. not the ridiculous premade builds). A good sci won't top the charts, because the charts are stupid and don't measure the things that actually win games.

As for solo elite PvE, I've never bothered, so you could be right.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
06-07-2010, 11:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildfyre010 View Post
I doubt very much that you have been 'VMd effectively', since VM is now mostly useless. That didn't happen in 1.2, though.

SNB is a Science Captain skill and therefore outside the purview of this discussion.

To the OP: Science got a gigantic buff in 1.2, it just wasn't to the powers that you seemed to think needed buffing. Science Vessels are very effective support / disruption right now (and make extremely good pure healers as well). What they can no longer do, which is a legitimate complaint, is CC or disable attackers in the way they used to with SNB and VM. They've also lost some offense with the change to FBP.

Regardless, 1.2 was not a nerf to Science in any way. Some very weak powers got small buffs (Tykens). Some very strong powers got nerfed (Jam Sensors). In the aggregate, Science ships are now excellent healers and decent disruption / support via Scramble Sensors, Tractor Beam, Tractor Beam Repulsor, Tykens, etc.
Well something shut my BoP down on a regular basis. If it wasn't VM or SNB, what could it be? Either way science has not suffered from the 1.2 changes, imo.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
06-07-2010, 12:17 PM
Quote:
Well something shut my BoP down on a regular basis.
Yeah, but see this is the kind of thing that creates such a problem on the forums. 'Something' messes up your ship, and you make posts blaming abilities that no longer do anything like what you're experiencing. If you have a complaint about something, take the time to actually look in your combat log to figure out what happened.

As to the actual effect shutting down your ship, there are several possibilities:

Full stun? Tractor Beam Repulsor is a stun as well as knockback during which you can't use abilities. Boarding Party has been significantly improved and can have a wide variety of debilitating effects, up to and including disabling your shields entirely for a set period. Target Subsystems: Engines, Eject Warp Plasma, and Tractor Beam can all stop you dead in space, as well as VM.

Point is, complain with evidence or don't complain. People who aren't informed enough to understand why they died, but post about it anyway and request nerfs, are damaging this game.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
06-07-2010, 12:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roach View Post
Well something shut my BoP down on a regular basis. If it wasn't VM or SNB, what could it be? Either way science has not suffered from the 1.2 changes, imo.
Boarding Party? Target Subsystems Engines? Some combination of science powers that still knock you out for a bit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edgecase
because the charts are stupid and don't measure the things that actually win games.
As true as true can be. I'm getting pretty bored with screenshots of the scorecard these days. And everyone mangling the acronym DPS. But oh well. It's a long-standing problem Cryptic has had with both of its game. Damage dealt as the only metric for player input in an event or an encounter.

Quote:
As for solo elite PvE, I've never bothered, so you could be right.
The biggest obstacles faced in PVE is that DPS struggles more because ... shields are stronger and hull points are higher.

I changed my build with this patch. It focuses on shield draining.

I find elite space battles in PVE to be challenging. But easier with my new build than they were pre-patch with my old build.

In fact, I'd been working on tweaking and changing my build since the change to Viral Matrix. And had been stumped. But the changes to Aux, and notably to science powers like Tachyon Beam and Energy Siphon, as well as the new Boarding Party, helped give my new build a real kick in the pants.

It's not a great build.

But it is more fun and more effective than the one I had been using, which has been slowly nerfed over time.

And that's the real trick right there. My old build had been getting progressively worse with each patch.

This new build I made was boosted by this patch.

So the movement seems even more extreme since both were going in opposite directions.

Like I said ... it's not a great build.

It's just something new that is focused on a particular effect and can do that somewhat efficiently. The DPS is nothing to write home about. The survivability isn't anything all that hot. But I feel like my ship has a purpose again. Which it had been lacking for awhile.
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