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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
06-08-2010, 07:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darksided View Post
Amen. If someone is not having success in PvP, the starting point for addressing that problem is recognition it is the player that is the problem.

Once you do that, you'll be ready to listen to the advice that is constantly being put on these forums - some of which is very useful.
If players are still having issues with pvp, they said players need to try playing pvp at a lower ranking then Rear Admiral until such time as they can play with the "big boys" so to speak. There is no loss of "face" in doing this as one must walk before one can run.

This leads to my second point; All the existing gripes still sound as if they are coming from RA levels of PvP and don't seem to be as much of a problem as one goes into the lower level pvp ques. Maybe, just maybe, the changes need to be done at the RA levels only this next time.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
06-08-2010, 08:03 AM
I think you kind of hit the nail right on the head. Lots of people are doing like I did, level through PvE, get bored, try PvP, get pwned. I still think that rather than making too many more changes people should take the burden of learning upon themselves and enroll a character to bring it up through the ranks of PvP.

Experience is the best teacher.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
06-08-2010, 09:46 PM
Wow....just wow. Where were all these opinions that "the player is the problem" and that people "leveling through PvE" are the issue two weeks ago? Organized fleets and high-level PvP'ers have been saying this for months yet have been shouted down as "elitist" or "e-peen stroking" by the community.

Now people are starting to realize the truth...that no amount of nerfs or DEV assistance is going to make poor players any better. It's only handicapping and disappointing the high-end players. We just got done with a major wave of nerfs, changes, power rewrites, and game mechanic switches yet already there are multi-page posts asking for more nerfs and changes?!

The magical balance of power upheaval that many low-end PvP players were hoping for has not...and probably will never...materialized as a result of Cryptics actions. The good PvP teams are still good. The poor PvP players and uncoordinated fleets/teams are still bad. There are always methods employed to assist and assure victory. Good players seek them out and refine them until perfected. Take away BTSS? No problem...eat a triple Beta stack. Bad players? They whine and cry for nerfs and when they get them they find the next best thing and cry for nerfs there as well.

The truly sad part of it all is that Cryptic actually listens to them...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
06-08-2010, 10:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Badlander View Post
How is this a bad thing.. No amount of nerfs/balancing will help bad players. You could give us all paper ships and wet noodles for weapons and a better player will still beat poor ones 98% of the time. To try and balance a game over poor players is a poor idea PLAIN AND SIMPLE.
As someone who doesn't pvp (but who has in other games) i have a partial answer to this. Terrible doesn't just have to be because someone is genuinely bad. It's a pretty liberally thrown around label which can also land on players who are new to this games pvp and trying to get a handle on things and may not yet have the perfect pvp set up or experience that comes with actual pvp in the game.

So if someone in that situation is discouraged because they're underperforming then it's entirely possible they mauy just opt out of giving pvp a reasonable try thus shrinking the pvp "pool" of players for matches.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
06-08-2010, 11:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roach View Post
If players are still having issues with pvp, they said players need to try playing pvp at a lower ranking then Rear Admiral until such time as they can play with the "big boys" so to speak. There is no loss of "face" in doing this as one must walk before one can run.

This leads to my second point; All the existing gripes still sound as if they are coming from RA levels of PvP and don't seem to be as much of a problem as one goes into the lower level pvp ques. Maybe, just maybe, the changes need to be done at the RA levels only this next time.
I might have missed something, but I don't think the thread was about people being unsuccessful in PvP. The complaint was that it's gone a lot more towards "nobody wins, nobody loses, nothing happens".

I honestly don't think there is a chance of my cruiser losing a fight to a single ship -- I might not win, but I'm definitely not going to lose. Usually I'm not in serious trouble until I have 3 or more ships firing on me. I'm not a great player, I get lazy, I don't always pay attention, I crash into stuff and get stuck while I'm watching behind me, but even with how much I suck the risk of losing has pretty much gone.

I think the complaint is that the game is too easy if anything. If you happen to get stuck in a cruiser vs. cruiser fight, you might as well be playing tic-tac-toe. The only way for anyone to win or lose that fight is if one player is extremely bad. Not just a little bad, but extremely bad.

Learning or adapting won't help because the problem is that players don't lose, not that they're losing too much.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
06-09-2010, 03:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BountyXP View Post
Wow....just wow. Where were all these opinions that "the player is the problem" and that people "leveling through PvE" are the issue two weeks ago? Organized fleets and high-level PvP'ers have been saying this for months yet have been shouted down as "elitist" or "e-peen stroking" by the community.

Now people are starting to realize the truth...that no amount of nerfs or DEV assistance is going to make poor players any better. It's only handicapping and disappointing the high-end players. We just got done with a major wave of nerfs, changes, power rewrites, and game mechanic switches yet already there are multi-page posts asking for more nerfs and changes?!
Maybe the opinion have changed because the situation has changed? Because the claims that the game is broken can no longer be substantiated as well as they could before? Because people that used to have problems before now no longer have them?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
06-09-2010, 05:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by inktomi19d View Post
I might have missed something, but I don't think the thread was about people being unsuccessful in PvP. The complaint was that it's gone a lot more towards "nobody wins, nobody loses, nothing happens".

I honestly don't think there is a chance of my cruiser losing a fight to a single ship -- I might not win, but I'm definitely not going to lose. Usually I'm not in serious trouble until I have 3 or more ships firing on me. I'm not a great player, I get lazy, I don't always pay attention, I crash into stuff and get stuck while I'm watching behind me, but even with how much I suck the risk of losing has pretty much gone.

I think the complaint is that the game is too easy if anything. If you happen to get stuck in a cruiser vs. cruiser fight, you might as well be playing tic-tac-toe. The only way for anyone to win or lose that fight is if one player is extremely bad. Not just a little bad, but extremely bad.

Learning or adapting won't help because the problem is that players don't lose, not that they're losing too much.
My original post was in agreement with DARKSIDED assesment that when a player states " I'm not getting/having fun/ or pvp is too difficult" then the Dev's/player in question needs to look to the players skills with pvp first and possibly said player should possibly start pvp in a lower ranking first to build said skills.

I was not commenting towards cruiser play in PvP, though I do feel that the "self-healing" ability of cruisers need to be riegned in about 25% to keep fights from being too long.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
Maybe the opinion have changed because the situation has changed? Because the claims that the game is broken can no longer be substantiated as well as they could before? Because people that used to have problems before now no longer have them?
I have always felt that the claims of PvP being out of balanced partially hung on the experience of players who had know history with or enough player expeience with pvp, and thus was skewed data.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
06-09-2010, 05:19 AM
Two cents:
1] Ramming Speed sucks, is overused, and needs to be restricted to low-hull conditions.

2] 5 Cruisers v 5 Cruisers takes a loooong time....
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
06-09-2010, 05:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naevius
Two cents:
1] Ramming Speed sucks, is overused, and needs to be restricted to low-hull conditions.

2] 5 Cruisers v 5 Cruisers takes a loooong time....
(1) Ramming speed should only be able to be activated when your ship has 25% or below hull left imo. That would be both realistic and balancing.

(2) Indeed lol, Woe betide anyone who fights this in a deathmatch arena.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
06-09-2010, 07:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
Maybe the opinion have changed because the situation has changed? Because the claims that the game is broken can no longer be substantiated as well as they could before? Because people that used to have problems before now no longer have them?
Exactly my point. For those forum QQ'ers the situation has changed. The supposedly "flawed" game mechanic rationale is no longer present. So now what's the excuse? The same players/fleets who dominated before 1.2 and before 1.1 and during opening release and in Beta are still dominating now. The same people who littered space with the debris of their exploding ships still die and play miserably.

Cryptic has obliged these clowns with endless changes in a misguided attempt to desperately hold on to their last 80k paying subscribers and have them magically turn a blind eye to the woeful lack of end-game content. First they cried about FBP/SNB/VM. Boom...nerf bat came down. Then they complained about BTSS and "exploits" and boom...the nerf bat came down. Then they complained of being "one-shotted" and escorts doing too much damage and...boom...the nerf bat has come down. If they ever do make the mistake of listening to these people again and nerfing RSP or APB or other skills then what will be the next power targeted? Anything another player can use to an advantage over them draws their ire and repeated forum posts filled with nerf cries.

In the end those players simply are poor PvP'ers. The rest of us have been shouting it from the rooftops for months. Letting you know this exact scenario was going to play itself out. That the "mechanics" were fine. It was the player base that was the issue. A bunch of Captain Kirk's who are either role-playing or PVE'ing their way through the game and then step into PvP expecting to dominate. There are those that take PvP seriously. Those that look at it as a challenge. Those that join competitive fleets to hone their craft and maximize their gameplay. Those that use dedicated voice communications to eek out every ounce of team cohesion and synergy. The forum QQ'ers will never match up with that...no matter how many nerfs Cryptic throws their way.
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