Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
06-09-2010, 02:24 PM
Storm-Herald's caution about the issues surrounding a "Hall of Fame" seem pretty common-sense, and as far as solutions go the obvious one is that a "hall of fame" concept really isn't needed.

I like most of Storm-Herald's ideas, but would like to add some discussion to them. The "publishing" system where someone is given an "approval step" acts as a roadblock. That could be good to prevent a lot of junky missions, but introduces a dependency on Cryptic personnel which costs them money and us time. It also empowers them to decide what they don't like, for example they might not approve a Klingon Religious Jihad. I think this can be reasonably community-policed with the "personal" rating system described here. I can't see doing away with a ranking system and relying on word of mouth though - many of the players never visit the forums nor should they have to.

When "hiring" volunteers I see two issues. First, you may have a burning desire to create missions and not be chosen. Secondly, as a volunteer you might not have the creative freedoms you desire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm-Herald
4B) Custom Starbases and Head Quarters.
Be still my beating heart! Starbases!! Yes, please! Not as empty husks, but as described in the Starbase thread. Now that's new content!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm-Herald
When someone says "this is a way to get content for Klingons!" it says to me that they see UGC as a way to PVE level a Klingon and that says to me "Danger!"
It speaks more of frustration to me that people have no faith Cryptic understands the Klingon heart, religion, honor, or politics (Like KvK where you're randomly assigned a house - needed perhaps for the PvP mechanism, but it's just plain scary in terms of understanding Klingons). I suspect there will be a lot of Klingon missions, mainly as the Klingon culture is so incredibly rich and diverse.

I believe the point of UGC is for both the designers and the players to have more fun, not to screw the game up. For everyone to have fun, there needs to be a good set of tools for the designers, then a great way for the players to find the missions they'll like most, and of course some way to ensure no famers can profit from the system.

Of course, I'm jaded too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren_Kitlor
Let the community tag and the most commun tags (using the dictionary autocomplete) would be assigned.

Having a search-able system would be awesome and [tags] are some of the simplest ways of doing this. If you've played LittleBigPlanet, you might understand just how useful this could be.
Tags are good when they're consistent, but you're right - haven't played it so I could be all wet.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
06-09-2010, 04:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by StarbasePrime

It speaks more of frustration to me that people have no faith Cryptic understands the Klingon heart, religion, honor, or politics (Like KvK where you're randomly assigned a house - needed perhaps for the PvP mechanism, but it's just plain scary in terms of understanding Klingons). I suspect there will be a lot of Klingon missions, mainly as the Klingon culture is so incredibly rich and diverse.
.


Acutally I have a lot of confidence in Cryptic's writers, I just don't have any faith in their development executives.

Executive: We need to get keep people playing in the Klingon Faction. Those players are quitting in droves and cite "lack of content."
Developer: Well we've this UGC system close to being done but those players won't be able to level up so we still need to get some real content for them done.
Executive: Then just give them full XP for the missions and push it live.
Developer: But it'll be exploited like CoX did. It could sap the main PVE gameplay.
Executive: Nah, just give them something to do.

Two weeks later:

Executive: We have Klingon Players quitting in droves now that they all leveled to the level cap. Put in some way for them to faction swap to Federation.
Developer.....

I was really on board again with UGC until someone said "this will replace the lack of content for Klingons!" and now I'm off again.

When it went live it nuked COX and only after months of work did they finaly tweek it right. So far all of the conversation tells me that STO's UGC will be:

a) Another game breaker as the AE was when it first went live

or

b) Have so few rewards (as the AE does now) that everyone whines that it was pointless to offer.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
06-09-2010, 06:50 PM
What I suggested to Stoked was this:

UGC should be a subsection of the crafting system titled "Holo-novelist"

Edit: to be less wordy

1 There could be a dedicated room at Memory alpha for creating Holo-novels.

2. You would level your profession as Holo-novelist by mastering the tools required to make a holo-novel So basically making through an detailed tutorial is how you level up to master holonovelist.

3. You will only be able to make public released Novels once you have reached max level as a holo-novelist. However you would be able to create anything you want and invite friends to test it out as often as you like before that.

4. Once you reach max level and have created a holonovel you will then submitt it for testing in the Memory Alpha novel testing Holo-deck as a tier 1 Holo-novel. Users can test and rate the Novels on how fun and interesting they were. Novels that revcieve a few positive votes will move to tier 2

5. Novels that do not make it are returned to the author for thier private collection. they can play these novels and invtie others to play them as well. Or they can decide to sign them off to be placed in a "scrap bin" where people can play them freely or even use them and improve upon them and resubmit them with credit going to the origional author as a contributor.

6. Tier 2 novels will be sold by NPC vendors at a set EC price(this is to ensure that some people do not charge an arm and a leg for content) There could be a peruse fee and if you really enjoyed the novel you can choose to buy it outright for a higher fee.

7. as an incentive to test the free stuff at memory alpha. Free credits could be offered to play tier 2 novels for free for every few novels you test. so a person who essentially tests a lot can play tier 2 novels for free as well. However a free token used on a novel still would count as a sale for the author.

8. The author would get a cut of the tier 2 sales.

Now to add a twist (and prevent someone from becoming independently wealthy), if a holo-novel becomes super popular, for example sells a certain amount of copies, it will mysteriously disappear(stolen) from the NPC's and appear at Quarks bar in the holo-suites. This will prevent the most popular novels from making too much money for users. Having one novel at quarks gives the author free access to any holo-suite and once a player gets, let's say 5 holo-novels at quarks bar. you then have access to a secret cargo compartment in the back of the bar where you can choose from certain special items. At a discounted price of course. And maybe if you get 20 novels there you can obtain a flyable Ferengi ship. This will be something to strive for, for any gifted holo-novelist and encourage quality content. And at the same time allow the novelist the chance to make some EC's but not way too much, but also have access to some awesome special equipment at quarks bar. All decent rewards for all your hard work. Flying around the Ferengi ship will let people know you are one of those that have created a lot content that they have enjoyed.


This plan:

1. helps the crafting system
2. makes UGC a fun and enjoyable endeavor and allows at the very least someone to create holo-novels that they and their friends can play no matter what skill level. or allows the more experienced to excel and create novels that might become stuff of legends.
3. Makes sure that whoever creates UGC knows how to use the system before they are allowed to attempt it for public use. (since leveling your holo-novelist professions is basically mastering the UGC tools and you cannot make a publicly used holo-novel until you are a master holo-novelist)
4. Ensures many levels of quality control for UGC.
5. gives a nice reward system for those that create decent content.
6. ensure that the UGC stays in one place, the Holo-deck, rather then potentially making the universe a tangled mess of missions that may be well crafted but don't seem to fit the time-line. Also would eliminate cryptic having to waste their own manpower to do continuity checks since it is on a holo-deck where you should be able to create anything.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
06-09-2010, 07:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm-Herald
And again, how woudl it get into the hall of fame if it's at the place where the "crap" is?

Or once they have 10 good missions in the Hall of Fame, how do you get more when the majority of people go Quarks rather than go test the 'crap'? Why would people do that in the numbers required to get stuff up into the Hall of Fame?

THat kind of system is going to go this way:

A bunch of stuff will be released.
The best of it will end up in the hall of fame.
Then anything in the hall of fame will rack up reviews to solidify it there, getting 3-10 times as many reviews as anything still in "testing".

And the entire "game" of creating UGC will be over because nothing newly released will be able to get the nessecary votes to get up into that Hall of Fame tier if it misses out on that first tier.

And before you call me alarmist I already played this game with NWN. I was lucky enough to get out in the front wave and released (I flatter myself to think) a kickbutt moduale. It was very well played and reviewed and quickly got in the top 10. Where it stayed. 6 months later much better modules came out that used new tools they released but my mod still remained on teh "top 10 list" simply because the algorithm rated it the best. It had a ton of downloads and a really good number of positive ratings. Even after the ratings started to drop, the sheer number of plays with the early high ratings (when that was the standard), kept my average high.

There were a ton of new mods that came out that had to fight 4 times as hard as I did to get where I was because the momentum of a solid early release catapulted me to the top ahead of them.

I do ~NOT~ want to see that again.
Read my reply above. it has the whole post I sent to Stoked on the 3 tier system idea.

The content at quarks will cost you EC to play. the best stuff at quarks wont be free by any means. no Ferengi is going to give anything away for free. 2nd most of new the content wont be just "crap" it will be made by people who have mastered the tools. and know how to at least put together a mission as you have to reach master level holo-novelist in order to post a public mission. So some of that stuff will be decent and also it is free to test. There will always be those who want to try the UGC missions but don't have any EC so they will become testers at Memory alpha to play for free(EC's). a few positive votes will kick it to tier 2 so there is a fast turnaround.

Also there will be a lot of less expensive holo-novels at the star bases or you can upload them to your own holo-deck once ship interiors allows that. The tier two missions will already be tested and approved by others and less expensive.

And who knows maybe there can be some incentive for testing the newly created holo-novels. Like free credits for tier 2 quests. So if you beta test a ton of new novels then you could play a lot of the tier 2 onces for free as well. even though someone uses a free token for a tier 2 novel it still counts as a sale for the author.

there would be a lot more novels in the tier 2 as someone must sell quit a few copies of their novel to get the attention of quarks bar. so most of the novels would be in tier 2. And those also cost credits but are less expensive and if you want to play those for free you need to do some testing to earn credits for tier 2 novels.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
06-09-2010, 08:18 PM
I have a few suggestions, like Pikoy seems to mention if your holo-novel isn't good enough for tier 2, it mysteriously vanishes. I would like to see it stay there indefinitly, cause playing a bad holo-novel may be like watching a bad movie...fun nonetheless

Id also like to use the holodeck on my ship, so maybe if I bought the holo-novel once, it's on my ship's library files until I delete it.

These, of course, are all nitpicks. I'm nitpicking, cause this is such a GREAT idea. I really love the idea of user rated content becoming "official" holo-novels and being able to make money off of them.

And about no one playing "crap" and memory alpha? There's always gonna be testers out there. When I play LBP, I dont just play the best rated worlds...that would get boring eventually.

Recap: Good Idea!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
06-09-2010, 08:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScaryGuy View Post
I have a few suggestions, like Pikoy seems to mention if your holo-novel isn't good enough for tier 2, it mysteriously vanishes. I would like to see it stay there indefinitly, cause playing a bad holo-novel may be like watching a bad movie...fun nonetheless

Id also like to use the holodeck on my ship, so maybe if I bought the holo-novel once, it's on my ship's library files until I delete it.

These, of course, are all nitpicks. I'm nitpicking, cause this is such a GREAT idea. I really love the idea of user rated content becoming "official" holo-novels and being able to make money off of them.

And about no one playing "crap" and memory alpha? There's always gonna be testers out there. When I play LBP, I dont just play the best rated worlds...that would get boring eventually.

Recap: Good Idea!

I didn't say they would mysteriously vanish. they would remain in the authors database and they would be able to still play them and invite friends to play them as well. But I do like the idea of there being a kinda of "scrap bin" for those who want to try out those novels that were rejected. I myself LOVE MSTK3000.

So I can completely see your point there. and love your idea of keeping them around. Maybe the scrap bins can be used by others to use as a ready made template to rework into a new idea. Maybe the author has a great idea but couldn't figure out how to implement it. so a new person can take it and make it great. the original author's signature can remain on it as well as a contributer.


edit: I added your ideas to my original post. they are very nice.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
06-09-2010, 09:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aguila432 View Post
I dont mean to troll this thread or bash anyones ideas, but I dont support this whole ugc thing myself.
Just posting my vote on it.

Ill leave it at that and see my way out as to not upset nor argue with anyone who is for this proposition.
Is there a reason why? I can see no adverse affect to you should it be implemented.
If you don't want to create anything, don't. If you don't want to play any creations, don't. Are either of those a reason to not allow anyone else to do so, or do you have another reason for not liking the idea?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
06-09-2010, 09:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aguila432 View Post
I dont mean to troll this thread or bash anyones ideas, but I dont support this whole ugc thing myself.
Just posting my vote on it.

Ill leave it at that and see my way out as to not upset nor argue with anyone who is for this proposition.
Hey, thats cool. When UGC is added you dont have to use it
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
06-09-2010, 09:10 PM
I definitely like the idea of holonovels (as soon as I heard the term used I knew it was from you ), but we part company in regards to restricting UGC to the holosuite. Mainly because I believe this can be done without making the universe a tangled mess of missions or wasting Cryptic's manpower in review.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
06-09-2010, 09:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Syrinx
Is there a reason why? I can see no adverse affect to you should it be implemented.
If you don't want to create anything, don't. If you don't want to play any creations, don't. Are either of those a reason to not allow anyone else to do so, or do you have another reason for not liking the idea?
I think these are the reasons:
Quote:
Originally Posted by StarbasePrime View Post
I've been to every post I can find on the topic, and while there is a lot of nay-saying there's very little in the way of concrete issues. The legal problem is Cryptic's, since they've been talking about doing this I can only assume it's possible rather than impossible.

Just pointing to another system that has failed is like saying one plane fell out of the sky. Assuming from that all future planes are doomed to fall out of the sky isn't worth serious consideration. Just as people can point to one that failed, I can point to NWN, FreeSpace or Fallout to show you were it succeeded. It's far more important to learn why that plane fell out of the sky so future planes don't crash. If Cryptic decides to do this they will, the best we can do is to help guide them away from invisible pitfalls.

From this and other threads we know these major problems:
  1. Tons of junk missions can overwhelm the ability to find good missions
  2. Ranking missions isn't simple as different players represent different factions and have different tastes (e.g., a tribble lover might find it hard to find a mission because the overwhelming number of tribble haters will rank it poorly)
  3. The danger of loopholes that allow exploiters to get undue rewards
I believe the UGC Features thread has workable solutions to all these problems.
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