Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 41
06-10-2010, 10:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm-Herald
When AE launched NO ONE played the core game of COX any more.
I never had a problem finding teams for TFs/SFs or any other mission content when AE was launched. My SG and Coalition friends never had problems either. Claiming "NO ONE" did anything but AE is an overeggeration and completely false.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 42
06-10-2010, 10:54 AM
Wanted to add... I know they said this was the No. 1 request, but IMO any player ranking system - regardless if it is tied to accolades or not - is going to be "gamed" and abused to the point of being meaningless.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 43
06-10-2010, 10:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shard-Warrior View Post
I never had a problem finding teams for TFs/SFs or any other mission content when AE was launched. My SG and Coalition friends never had problems either. Claiming "NO ONE" did anything but AE is an overeggeration and completely false.
Fine.

I couldn't find anyone to play with because my SG's were barely active, my coalition had more or less broken up and everytime I sat and tried to get a group I got nothing back but "sure, but only if it's an AE farm."

I'm not making this up and frankly I'll thank you guys to stop saying that.

For me, the AE destroyed COX and I did not remain long enough for them to realize the damage done and "fix it". For me, it was a case of either spending an hour begging for a group, doing AE farms, or doing nothing.

So ya, bully for you that you still had an active SG. All of my efforts to find such were met with silence. Go you.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 44
06-10-2010, 11:01 AM
i am a die hard disliker of STOked and the people that run it...

with that said though, Zodi, I thik they should make you a prime time member for doing their job of informing people as you do.

kudos to you Zodi. (and Zodi only...lol)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 45
06-10-2010, 11:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shard-Warrior View Post
Wanted to add... I know they said this was the No. 1 request, but IMO any player ranking system - regardless if it is tied to accolades or not - is going to be "gamed" and abused to the point of being meaningless.
That's one of the "great" things about the "Personal" ranking system, it ignores the rankings of some players - should make it harder to "game". Even better, those that do try to "rig" it, will most likely suffer for it.
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# 46
06-10-2010, 11:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by StarbasePrime
That is exactly why we need to band together with a unified voice and why saying "it's bad" isn't as effective as saying "here's what we need to do to be a success".
Sadly though I see very few, universally accepted ways that it can be done "successfullly" because success has many many different benchmarks.

If "Success" is to create content for Klingons to PVE their way along, then it MUST have XP rewards. However those XP rewards for missions which were tailored to be as easy as possible are the very reason so many people stopped playing the core PVE game in COX. The solution in COX was to nerf the rewards into nothingness.

Thus, if you don' thave XP rewards, as the COX experience taught me, then it won't be a success for those who want this to be a replacement for lacking Klingon content.

If "Success" is that a lot of people use it, then you'll need some incentive to get people to use it, otherwise it'll just be a side note. This leads back to a reward system, and that reward system will be gamed. Which is unavoidable, but for those who would like to try it to get some rewards but not 'invest' to make themselves on par with the people who can rig the system it will be incredibly frustrating.

If "success" is simply having it available for fleets for RP, then you can push it with nothing but the ability to make fun missions but the result will be people screaming about the waste of developer time on a side show. If it doesn't advance a character, or give drops, then why is it there? Isn't that the point of an MMO?

Now for me the only way for it to be a "Success" is just that. You make it completely reward free, you do not bill it as "content replacement" or "expansion" and simply as a tool for people to have fun. If you want a ranking system, fine, but make it meaningless beyond bragging rights. No "your mission is sent to quarks", no "you're in the hall of fame". Nothing.

Do that and I'll call it a "success".

Granted I'm not just bitter about CoX's AE.

I tried out "The Movies" a few years ago, a game where you made little short films and posted them on the official website. There you got "points" based on how often your movie was watched and what kinds of reviews it got. If you had a 'top rated' movie, you of course got viewed more, and you got more points. These points could then be redeemed for in game items. You could get more costumes, more sets, more camera angles. These were NOT available any other way.

The result was that to get any additional content you had to "cheat". YOu had to make a movie that was 'offensive' so that you'd get waves of views to see how offensive it was. Nothing draws the eyes like "don't call it offensive until you see it." There were movies at the top of the 'popular' chart with a 1 star rating because it was horrible but viewed a lot to verity how horrible it was! I ended up "cheating" and buying a set with the few points I could scrape up and then posting a 'movie' of the various shots in the set so people could see before they bought. It got me a TON of points because, well, everyone wanted to see if it was worth it. My "movie" had a 2 star rating but again, a TON of views.

UGC was the core of this part of the game. It also, in my opinion, was crap.

I really do think that the majority of people clamoring for UGC (MIssions) in STO really don't have experience with those systems and those of us who do are just labeled as nay-sayers and cynics.

I did the UGC going back to NWN and going forward to COX's Mission Architect. I'm not talking out of my bottom here and I still see companies and websites making the same "mistakes" because they're very very hard mistakes to avoid.

And, as I said at the start, because "success"... is not a word we all agree on.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 47
06-10-2010, 11:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm-Herald
I'm not making this up and frankly I'll thank you guys to stop saying that.
Hang on... nowhere did I say you were "making it up", nor am I disagreeing with you in that the AE Farming was rampant when it first launched. I'm only pointing out that your choice of words tend to be over exaggeration rather than fact.

No question that AE was heavily farmed when it launched, yet that does not mean "everyone" was AE farming or that "no one did anything but AE farm". No question it caused you and others to abandon the game and there is nothing wrong with that.

Some coalition and SG mates and I ran an Abandoned Sewer Trial not long after AE launched on Triumph server. We had the pleasure of having Mod08 from NCSoft tag along with us for the trial.

The highlight of the whole event was when we finished and were hanging in Atlas Park chatting, and Mod08 got invited to an AE Farm team. It was hysterical to say the least.... once all the farmers truly realized Mod08 really was Mod08 from NCSoft, the AE building quickly cleared.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 48
06-10-2010, 11:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by StarbasePrime
That's one of the "great" things about the "Personal" ranking system, it ignores the rankings of some players - should make it harder to "game". Even better, those that do try to "rig" it, will most likely suffer for it.
Personally, I don't think it would need a ranking system. I'd rather it have a robust search capability to allow me to filter through all the available stories to find what I'm looking for, and allow me to personally rank stories for my own use. It would also be nice if it were able to offer similar arcs for stories that I rank.

Everyone has different tastes, so if there really must be a ranking system it should be an individual one that doesn't show for everyone.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 49
06-10-2010, 12:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by StarbasePrime
So, you couldn't ask about the bits of the UGC Feature thread I'm most proud of (e.g., the Ranking system and mission filter or how its immersive where I could whip out the pretty pictures). No, you have to ask hard questions. Well, you know the old saying, One human's Rattlesnake problem is just lunch for a Klingon.

First, what's in the UGC Features list now is that you can only build with era appropriate content. To get other content, you have to check that the mission is a "holonovel" (yes, I used your term, but did give you credit in the acknowledgments and there's a whole post dedicated to you when one poster said, "What the **** are those? ). So, you won't see anything inappropriate in terms of content for in-game missions while the sky's (& beyond) the limit for holonovels.

Now, you sly old dog, the next part of your question is more insidious as you're asking how do you prevent missions that don't follow the major plot lines (e.g., a designer mission has you release an "Undine" virus guaranteed to wipe them out at lt. Cmdr). The simple answer is you don't. But wait! Before you conclude the Rattlesnake eats the Klingon I would like to point a few things out:
  • There's really not much in the way of a "major" plot in the timeline now, so not a lot to screw-up really.
  • If someone did write an "Undine" solution (or similar plot-counter), obviously it didn't work - so the mission was ultimately a failure for some unknown reason to the captain & crew.
  • Using "Personal" Rankings (first couple of paragraphs in Post #2 of UGC Features), the system would auto-correct to where you would only see missions that fit your tastes. Sure, someone has to play "bad" missions and rank them appropriately to begin with - but only those brave soles that volunteer for the duty (with any luck, designers will see it as their "due", which gives you the folks with the best insight into the process making the initial assessments).
  • Each mission also has a description, if you see the mission has a plot-breaking storyline you'd probably just pass over it.



I'm not sure that a ranking "decay" would be worth it for a "hall of fame". I rather eliminate the "hall of fame". Does the "Hall of Fame" really serve any point?

Now, I could see poorly rated missions being automatically dropped over a period of time so that eventually all the "older" missions were 4+ stars only. Which means that except for the most recent content, everything in the game would be "hall of fame" quality.


I understand, but also thank you for it. Whether UGC happens or not is outside our control. The best anyone can do is try to illuminate the facts to prevent a fiasco. If it's any consolation, the UGC Features threads had heard that caution and because of it suggests phasing in the UGC where initially there are no rewards of any sort - it asks that rewards come later (retroactively) after all the bugs and potential loopholes people might use to create "farmable" missions have been eliminated. Lots of reasons to rush UGC, but few reasons to rush the reward aspects to UGC.
HEHE Love your Klingon proverb One human's Rattlesnake problem is just lunch for a Klingon

I really like the rating system you have there. Kinda like Netflix. Gives you suggestions based on your ratings and tastes.

I would like to take credit for the term Holo-novel but it is cannon term used in the series. :p

I read over your post in your link and there are a lot of great ideas there. Holo-novels or quests of any kind should not be sold in the exchange though. If a quest is really great a person might sell it for 5 million credits or more. There needs to be a way to ensure that doesn't happen. Or maybe a cap on how much you can sell. I suggested to have NPC vendors sell them at a set price. One price for per-use and a second to buy the novel outright and upload it to your database. The authors would get a cut for each sale.

I am not a fan of the term "hall of fame" What i was suggesting is if a novel sells a certain amount of copies at the vendors it will mysteriously disappear and end up somehow at quarks bar. Ferengis take notice to things that sell a lot.And want to get their hands on them to get a piece of the action. So the "hall of fame" stuff is really holo-novels that are stolen and end up at quarks.(descent immersion i think) Any authors that have a novel there gets free access to all holo-suites. If you get 5 novels there you get access to the bars private cargo bay where you can purchase gear that is not available anywhere else and maybe even a rare item to add to your ready room. (a reward system for creating great content since I propose holo-novelist be a crafting profession) if you get maybe 10 or more novels into quarks you can purchase a Ferengi flyable vessel. thats better I think then just having a "hall of fame" leaderboard style thing. and has better immersion.

As far as Novels vs actual in game missions. Novels I suppose can give XP. maybe. But defiantly not loot. anything that would drop in a holodeck novel missions would never be able to be taken off the holo-deck. but flying missions in a holo-deck would give you XP.

I like your idea of in game missions(non holo-deck) having a standard xp and loot table applied to it automatically. That would go far to help prevent exploiters if the missions creators do not have control over that.

Might be cool and add immersion if those creating in game missions were creating them like they were giving the orders. So if you if I decided to do a quest you created there would be an avatar of your character or a new character you create giving me the mission. Like this is some new intel you have been made aware of and this is your mission you are personally giving.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 50
06-10-2010, 02:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm-Herald
...Thus, if you don' thave XP rewards, as the COX experience taught me, then it won't be a success for those who want this to be a replacement for lacking Klingon content....

And, as I said at the start, because "success"... is not a word we all agree on.
All good points. I doubt it's possible to make everyone happy, but we can hopefully ensure it doesn't make everyone miserable. Just a reminder, the requirements in the UGC Features thread do call for rewards (e.g., XP); just not until everyone's sure it can't be abused.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shard-Warrior View Post
... it have a robust search capability to allow me to filter through all the available stories to find what I'm looking for, and allow me to personally rank stories for my own use. It would also be nice if it were able to offer similar arcs for stories that I rank.

Everyone has different tastes, so if there really must be a ranking system it should be an individual one that doesn't show for everyone.
That's pretty much what's in the requirements now; except (the "recommendation system" is listed as "Extra Credit" in the "Future" section.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pikoy
HEHE Love your Klingon proverb One human's Rattlesnake problem is just lunch for a Klingon

I really like the rating system ... there [UGC Features]. Kinda like Netflix. Gives you ...[ratings] based on your ... tastes.
Yes, I was particularly worried about the ranking system as I see it to being crucial to the success (if people can't find good missions they'll just stop looking and that would hurt everyone); and it was pretty obvious with a little thought that an average would just lead to disaster. Best advice I got on it was the equivalent of a kick in the pants to see how others had solved it. The evilness that will occur to those that try to spoof it is just icing on the cake. There's also a plus in that when people discover they're ranking missions for them rather than posterity, some crazy hall of fame, etc, I think they'll have a lot easier time of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pikoy
I would like to take credit for the term Holo-novel but it is canon term used in the series. :p
No Jive? You were the first poster I'd seen use it and I thought it too perfect not to use. So, you're not a super-genius?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pikoy
Holo-novels or quests of any kind should not be sold in the exchange though. If a quest is really great a person might sell it for 5 million credits or more. There needs to be a way to ensure that doesn't happen. Or maybe a cap on how much you can sell. I suggested to have NPC vendors sell them at a set price. One price for per-use and a second to buy the novel outright and upload it to your database. The authors would get a cut for each sale.
My god man! Don't you have any Ferengi blood? Hang on, I'm sure I can find a Ferengi that doesn't really need theirs....

I see your point, winning the lotto has ruined many a person's life. Personally I like the idea of putting them on the exchange for sale.

I'd like to suggest a slight modification to your solution. That is holonovels are published by Quarks & Son Publishing Co. For the opportunity to have your work translated to holosuite you only need to pay them a relatively small fee, sort of a partnership costs for all the overhead they'll encounter. In turn, your magnum opus will appear for a month on the exchange and you'll actually get cold hard pressed latimum for each sale up to a limit.

This system has a couple of advantages. First, because people have to pay to have a mission put up, it means people just won't throw random stuff out - and they have to pay every month to keep it out in the public. Now, if the mission is a success, it should more than cover the fee, but it should also be capped. This way designers can get something back in-game for their efforts (unlike the in-game missions where designers would receive nothing). If the mission has been popular for a long time (say a year) then as you suggested holopiracy would ensue and the designer would no longer recieve rewards (or need to pay) to have the mission published. Finally, no need for new Ferengi to get a holonovel - they'll be digitally available at all Exchange Outlets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pikoy
authors that have a novel there...get access to
I really would hate to see holonovelists rewarded beyond energy credits. As for in-game designers, I really don't want to see them get any type of reward other than perhaps a trophy for their ready room.

Part of my logic for this is that those who are building "missions to get rich quick" will jump on the holonovels because they can make quick credits on it. (Can you imagine gold-sellers actually doing something useful?) That would also keep them from trying to figure ways around the blocks in place that prevent farming. Serious mission designers who do so for the love of trek rather than rewards would be building the missions that we see in-game. Sort of a psychological win-win.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pikoy
As far as Novels vs actual in game missions. Novels I suppose can give XP. maybe. But defiantly not loot. anything that would drop in a holodeck novel missions would never be able to be taken off the holo-deck. but flying missions in a holo-deck would give you XP.
Agreed, holosuite missions should definitely not give loot! I see your point about rewarding XP and certainly there's canon for it (e.g., Worf's training simulations). I'm not crazy about it though. I guess I could go either way on this one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pikoy
I like your idea of in game missions(non holo-deck) having a standard xp and loot table applied to it automatically. That would go far to help prevent exploiters if the missions creators do not have control over that.
Not my ideas, those were from the community (Pergrine_Falcon was the first I think). It also calls for reduced rewards rather than standard as a safety precaution. I think everyone fears that if the demon "farming" got out it there would be a significant mess that might not clean up easily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pikoy
Might be cool and add immersion if those creating in game missions were creating them like they were giving the orders. So if you if I decided to do a quest you created there would be an avatar of your character or a new character you create giving me the mission. Like this is some new intel you have been made aware of and this is your mission you are personally giving.
One human's cool is a swealtering day for an Andorian (Couldn't resist). The trick I think is not to preclude things you don't have to with artificial constraints. For example, I think via the requirements there now what you suggest is very doable - but there's nothing specific in the requirements about it. The more open ended the system is the more it frees the imagination (but not so free farmers find exploits).
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