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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Does anyone find that playing Capture and Hold is really boring now?

I can't exactly pinpoint any definite 1 fault to why it's boring now, I can list a couple though.

First, it's all about the mob squad now. Individuals cannot take anyone by surprise by much now and thus you can quickly hit a location, take out any defenders quickly and steal the location.

Secondly, with the hugely enhanced survivability, holding a point is now easy. Just heal and resist till the mob squad arrives.

Thirdly, because it's all about the mob squads, if the 2 mob squads dont' meet, both sides end up exchanging locations and games become extremely long and drawn out.

As a result, I'm seeing people getting bored and just giving up, letting themselves be killed, except for the premade which joins and they decide they want the kills for the points/ego/pride/whatever and thus they win.


Maybe I just need a lot more games, but from the few days of playing Capture and Hold, it's really getting strained.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
06-08-2010, 06:10 PM
I think a large part of the problem is that the map is too small for the speed at which we can travel. It promotes groups circling around in packs, and the response to this is to have your group travel in a pack as well. Then the two packs collide and get caught up in an endless deathmatch (usually while one player slips away and captures a majority of the locations unchallenged).

A larger map with really spread out locations would encourage teams to leave a couple of vessels at each point, each taking responsibility for a single objective since travel time becomes too significant to be worth moving around much. Shouldn't this be the point of Capture and Hold? There are plenty of maps that encourage entire groups to throw themselves at one another. C&H maps should be about smaller scale battles (2 on 2 or 3 on 3 at each location).

Finally, I think people get discouraged because the current capping and scoring system seems broken. This is an example of something I see often on the scoring front:

Blue owns 2 locations.
Red owns no locations.
All the remaining locations are contested (according to the icons).
For some reason, Blue is losing resource points and Red isn't. No, that isn't a typo.

I see that sort of situation all the time, and because it makes no sense to me I often wonder "is this thing even working?". Then there's the process of capturing a point, or capping. Because there's no feedback on how the cap is progressing, any player parked at the location for a bit finds themselves wondering if the node is broken. Should I stay longer and see if it's really broken? Should I go now and not waste anymore time in case it is broken? Decisions, decisions. There needs to be a way to tell which way the cap is going, and how it's progressing, and how long until it's completed.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
06-08-2010, 07:00 PM
Contested doesn't mean no point gains. 2 Blue and 3 Reds till one isn't contested. It's not the color which gives points. Many times I see people just fly through them to flip from color to white. It doesn't have any affect on scoring.

I would like a cap status as well.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
06-08-2010, 07:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bostish
Contested doesn't mean no point gains. 2 Blue and 3 Reds till one isn't contested. It's not the color which gives points. Many times I see people just fly through them to flip from color to white. It doesn't have any affect on scoring.
That's the problem. The moment you go to an uncontested location ( x ) , it changes to your side's symbol and the colors are white and striped red or blue (depending again on your side). But your team doesn't own that location until it becomes a solid color. Let's say Blue, for ease.

So then, as a Blue player, you see locations that are white and striped red. Are they like the point you just took - in the process of being captured by the red side, but still not owned? Or were they already red and now being contested by a blue player? From a distance it's difficult to tell what is actually happening because the indicators for "owned, but contested" and "neutral, but being captured" are exactly the same. Maybe this is more a problem for FvF or KvK where the symbol itself doesn't change (except for it's color). I just happen to do those types of C&H maps the most.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
06-08-2010, 11:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Florence
DAs a result, I'm seeing people getting bored and just giving up, letting themselves be killed, except for the premade which joins and they decide they want the kills for the points/ego/pride/whatever and thus they win.


Maybe I just need a lot more games, but from the few days of playing Capture and Hold, it's really getting strained.
If the pattern you describe is repeated then one side needs to rethink its tactics. If they know doing X leads to Y and Y is an unfavourable outcome than don't do X. I've had some fast and very close Salvage games following the patch and they have been good fun. If people leave because they cannot think of a new strategy then they have lost the game on a tactical level. It is unfortunate if the quitters come from your side but that is the risk of entering a competitive game.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
06-09-2010, 01:36 AM
there really has to be done something, it is in most cases boring because of many reasons stated above.

a few changes i would like to see to that map:

1. more statistics like cap points taken, maybe dmg taken, shield dmg and heal. this would improve the overview of who contributed to the team, always being a good motivation.

2. eventually something like side missions that can grant points like in the assault map. points taken could for example produce recources that can be beamed aboard the ship, and be taken back to the base. although this could also be an idea for other pvp maps. but on this map for example it could also be linked to other bonuses: sensor array could reveal opponents position, ship thing (sry forgot the name) could spawn npc ships, starbase give extra points, asteroid min recource points...

3. build in a time limit like 30 min for example, and after that different win conditions, like most points or recources, decide the game. or well change win conditions completely, but somehow make it more involving and interesting.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
06-09-2010, 02:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doryshan
If the pattern you describe is repeated then one side needs to rethink its tactics. If they know doing X leads to Y and Y is an unfavourable outcome than don't do X. I've had some fast and very close Salvage games following the patch and they have been good fun. If people leave because they cannot think of a new strategy then they have lost the game on a tactical level. It is unfortunate if the quitters come from your side but that is the risk of entering a competitive game.
The point is sometimes, we do organize. And then guess what? The games become so long and drawn out, people get bored and just decide that they want to throw the game anyway.

Haven't you seen enough games where each side has a small group that is organized, and the rest of the players just begs them to quit and finish the match already?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
06-09-2010, 03:37 AM
Yesterday I was really confused by the capture points. I couldn't figure out what state they were in and if they working at all.

It was an FvF map and I was on the red team (for the first time as a Fed in a Capture and Hold match). Enemy contacts are stil in red. But my own flag is suppoed to be red, right? Right? Really? is this flag working? Do I flip it? Why are we more players, win most if not all engagements, and are still losing points? Is this flag flipping to my side? Or is it already done?

We won in the end. I am not quite sure how. Maybe because we captured all points for a moment.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
06-09-2010, 05:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
Yesterday I was really confused by the capture points. I couldn't figure out what state they were in and if they working at all.

It was an FvF map and I was on the red team (for the first time as a Fed in a Capture and Hold match). Enemy contacts are stil in red. But my own flag is suppoed to be red, right? Right? Really? is this flag working? Do I flip it? Why are we more players, win most if not all engagements, and are still losing points? Is this flag flipping to my side? Or is it already done?

We won in the end. I am not quite sure how. Maybe because we captured all points for a moment.
I agree that the system of taking points and what the progress is on the point could be a LOT clearer. Perhaps with a little timer bar above the faction symbol.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
06-09-2010, 06:15 AM
I've never liked Capture and Hold. The design of the map encourages not fighting the enemy team. That's stupid and broken. Defending the nodes should be meaningful, assaulting them rapidly should be possible. As it is, the right way to win is to roll around in a giant group capturing lightly- or undefended nodes, avoiding major engagements as much as possible.

Major engagements are the whole ******n point of PvP. Maps should encourage fighting.
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