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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 61
06-16-2010, 07:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Albinonewt View Post
Good for them for joining, and welcome.

But yes, not being an early adopter should mean that you do not get the perks of being an early adopter. If you didnít buy gold when it was valued at less than half what itís valued at today you donít get a do over.
And if you buy then gold prices go down?

And if you miss a sale that doesn't mean what you wanted to buy is forever off the table because you're late to the party, you just have to pay slightly more. You only have to worry when you're dealing with limited quantities and in this case we aren't. If you buy the game now at it's current market value you aren't getting these bonus items for free, while the pre-order offers allowed for that at launch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albinonewt View Post
Games like STO (and really all of them) need early adopters in order to survive. One of the things I consider when deciding if Iím going to be one or wait 6 months before some of the kinks are worked out is whether or not there is any incentive to being an early adopter. What Cryptic is telling me is that when it comes to their games no, there is no incentive to be an early adopter.
You aren't getting your Veteran rewards? You should contract Cryptic's customer service department then. If you were an early adopter you should have your first package unlocked, and be about halfway to your second.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albinonewt View Post
Same thing here with exclusive content. Whether it be participation in an event or by purchasing a specific product if you donít do those things you miss the rewards for doing so.
And to people that chose not to adopt early in order to get exclusive content that was your choice to forgo those rewards. Why do you deserve them now?
Because you paid for them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albinonewt View Post
(And for people that complain that xyz wasnít available in their area, if youíre playing an online game then you have access to Internet, where these things could have been acquired. I have no idea what a Del Taco even is, but I got the shuttle by paying $5 on Ebay)
You can still buy a lot of this stuff on Ebay, maybe all of it. So you're kind of discounting your own argument. You didn't take part in the Del Taco promotion, you just paid to get the "reward" why do you deserve the reward you paid for, for the promotion you didn't take part in, while Sammy Somebody doesn't get to do the same?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 62
06-16-2010, 08:24 AM
The OP does have a point, I think gamers should boycott game items that are labeled 'Unique' and 'Exclusive' until game devs and publishers actually start using the word properly again.

Like BF Bad Company 2, you could buy the pre-order edition, get a few unlocks and slog your way to the top, or you could wait a couple of months, buy a now cheaper copy and just buy the Instant-Win button that levels you to 60 straight away.

Long and short, buying pre-orders and special editions is pointless now unless it comes with an art book and a vinyl of the music score
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 63
06-16-2010, 08:27 AM
Quote:
Did it say "Eternally Exclusive" somewhere?
I donít like getting in definition wars but,
Quote:
Definitions of exclusive (adj)
1. high-class: limited to a group of people, especially one considered fashionable or wealthy
2. selective: excluding or intending to exclude many from participation or consideration
3. restricted in use: only available to or used by one person, group, or organization
Exclusivity, definitionally, does not imply an expiration date. Unless the exclusivity is specifically modified with an expiration date then one is not assumed to exist.
Quote:
One example is not the industry standard, especially when that one example is from World of ******** which functions, as a business, so far beyond the industry standard as to be a complete anomaly.
If you read further I did list at least one other example, but off the top of my head dozens of WOW examples, EVE Online had special gifts for participating in event, Anarchy Online had the pioneer backpack, Hell Gate London had the dye packs. For MMOís, it is generally understood that if you buy a limited edition exclusive item it will not be available anymore (except maybe perhaps in another similarly limited fashion)


Quote:
You do realize most of this stuff was free pre-order bonuses which are now being charged for, right? So you actually got a lot of it with the cheapest iteration. The two versions which were offered at a cost (the Deluxe and Collector's Editions) are still available, now at a lower price (as one would expect from an older title).
You and I define free differently. I paid for my game. With money. In the case of items that were included in the purchase price the price I paid for them (in addition to the money) is the time value of money, since I had to be an early adopter in order to acquire those items (or so I thought)
And if these editions are still available for purchase, why do the items need to be in the C-Store?

Quote:
Also, the communicator, the art book, the Red Matter Capacitor, the Buddy Passes, the Automated Defence Battery, nor the shiny packaging those editions came with are in the C-Store.
Yeah, right now. In two weeks, who knows anymore.
Quote:
Did you really think the C-Store was planned to be a collection of limited time offers that would be put up then promptly thrown in the garbage? Really? Something gave you this idea?
Well, I generally work under the assumption that whatís on store shelves today wonít be there forever. But thatís beside the point. Cryptic has now removed any doubt that I can wait forever before getting something from the store. If I wasnít 100% sure maybe I would have bought something that Iím now going to wait on, perhaps for eternity
Quote:
Okay... so what would you know? Maybe you have an excellent business mind, or maybe you don't. You just said you're an accountant. You're position doesn't imply that you're an executive making important marketing decisions, just that you're crunching their numbers. In reality you could have swapped for "accountant" for "janitor" and "budgeting" for "floor cleaning" in your example and it would have been about as relevant to the situation (though admittedly less prestigious).
Budgeting doesnít imply knowledge of marketing decisions and how they impact, you know, the budget? Um, ok, if you say soÖ
Bottom line, one of the most important marketing and sales tools is the promotion. Cryptic has disarmed itself of this tool. That will likely have long term financial consequences.

[quote[ Also, I would hight doubt that it's Cryptic's design staff that is making decisions regarding the C-Store. I don't think the people coming up with game mechanics or making models and textures are the ones behind these decisions. Realistically it might not even be someone at Cryptic, but instead the brass at Atari. [/quote]
I would bet anything that this is completely driven by the designers and their concept of fairness and not a marketing team that understands the importance of limited time offers and promotions. Management would have had to sign off on it, but donít kid yourself where this idea came from.
Quote:
I always get a little nervous when I see someone being reasonable on the Internet... I think that is actually one of the signs of the apocalypse. Quick... do something crazy and malignant to put my mind at ease!
Yeah, reasonable as being defined as agreeing with your opinion. lol
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 64
06-16-2010, 08:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexis_1987
Long and short, buying pre-orders and special editions is pointless now unless it comes with an art book and a vinyl of the music score
The Collector's Edition had an art book. And a shiny case. And a communicator.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 65
06-16-2010, 08:39 AM
3.
Quote:
And if you buy then gold prices go down?
Then you probably stop buying it, just like when a cryptic item that was supposed to be rare no longer is, youíll likely stop buying it

Quote:
And if you miss a sale that doesn't mean what you wanted to buy is forever off the table because you're late to the party, you just have to pay slightly more. You only have to worry when you're dealing with limited quantities and in this case we aren't. If you buy the game now at it's current market value you aren't getting these bonus items for free, while the pre-order offers allowed for that at launch.
But it means participating in the sale is forever off the table.
And yes, we were dealing with limited quantities. Theyíre limited editions after all. The whole point was to get one of the limited number of boxes that came with promotion x. By putting those items in the C-Store they are no longer limited, but instead unlimited.

4.
Quote:
You aren't getting your Veteran rewards? You should contract Cryptic's customer service department then. If you were an early adopter you should have your first package unlocked, and be about halfway to your second.
Right now, that effect early adopters. But if the same stuff is in place a year from now it no longer is a reward for being a first adaptor. So maybe something will be in place permanently that will only be within the reach of the early adopters. But right now Iím betting against it based on the fungible definition of exclusive
5. Quote:
Quote:
Because you paid for them?
Really, you bought the promotional item when it was originally offered? Time is a component when dealing with promotions, and not just the money. Unless you spent the money at the right time you were not part of the promotion.

[quote[ You can still buy a lot of this stuff on Ebay, maybe all of it. So you're kind of discounting your own argument. You didn't take part in the Del Taco promotion, you just paid to get the "reward" why do you deserve the reward you paid for, for the promotion you didn't take part in, while Sammy Somebody doesn't get to do the same? [/quote]

Wrong on both counts. A) I purchased one of the limited quantity cups from someone who did participate in the promotion. That doesnít undermine the rareness of the promotion in any way because the promotion is still limited to the same number of cups with the code
B) Sammy Somebody can do the same. They can log onto Ebay or go to a store that still had the limited in quantity code and purchase it. Again, that in no way undermines the promotion. Having new codes created in addition to the promotion codes does undermine the promotion.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 66
06-16-2010, 10:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Albinonewt View Post
I donít like getting in definition wars but,

Quote:
Definitions of exclusive (adj)
1. high-class: limited to a group of people, especially one considered fashionable or wealthy
2. selective: excluding or intending to exclude many from participation or consideration
3. restricted in use: only available to or used by one person, group, or organization

Exclusivity, definitionally, does not imply an expiration date. Unless the exclusivity is specifically modified with an expiration date then one is not assumed to exist.
("Definitionally?" That's not a word. You mean "by definition.")

You do realize those definitions support what I've said, right?

None of them imply an expiration date, but none imply the lack of an expiration date either. You'll notice that the definitions don't all include the term "limited time offer." The items were exclusive, limited at launch and for five months afterwards, to those who purchased them in the specified ways. They are still exclusive, as now they are only available to those people and those who buy them from the C-Store and everyone else is still excluded from having the items.

By your own definition the items were exclusive, and are exclusive, and what you presented doesn't do anything to suggest one way or other that "exclusivity" is limited by time, which makes sense since the word itself does nothing to indicate it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albinonewt View Post
If you read further I did list at least one other example, but off the top of my head dozens of WOW examples, EVE Online had special gifts for participating in event, Anarchy Online had the pioneer backpack, Hell Gate London had the dye packs. For MMOís, it is generally understood that if you buy a limited edition exclusive item it will not be available anymore (except maybe perhaps in another similarly limited fashion)
The problem here is that you're mostly using in-game awards as examples. Things achieved for doing something in game or being there at a certain time, and not bonus items offered with purchase. Really, the entire idea is relatively new, one pioneered in the console market where more often than not we do see exclusives disseminating over time (I don't even think I need to give examples here). Pre-order bonuses for MMOs aren't exactly a common thing, so having expectations of them is questionable.

The only things so far which mirror these are the Tamarian Items, the Borg Tribble, and the Veteran Rewards which aren't in the C-Store (beyond the reoccurring Veteran bonuses like character slots).

The only real exception you offer here is Hellgate, a game that's gone free-to-play in some areas and had it's support terminated in the US and EU. A dead game not to be used as a model.

As far as stuff that are given out at purchase in the retail box, we mostly see that from games with online stores, and we see the content released to the store. Cryptic's first game, City of Heroes/Villains, is a good example of this. Purchase of a boxed copy of CoX allows access to a choice of free content with it that can also be purchased in the NCSoft Store, by either new or old customers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Albinonewt View Post
You and I define free differently. I paid for my game. With money. In the case of items that were included in the purchase price the price I paid for them (in addition to the money) is the time value of money, since I had to be an early adopter in order to acquire those items (or so I thought)
You're intentionally trying to ignore your own logic now. Your entire stance relies on the idea that these items were marketed as "exclusive" and thus you feel they should be (even though to an extent they still are, and there was never a limit to that exclusivity established). Your entire stance relies on a term used in the marketing.

You can't now say they weren't free bonuses when they were also marketed as such.

You're cherry picking and that just doesn't work. They were items offered at no extra charge to customers of certain places, and not others who bought the same products elsewhere. Thus they were free. If they were a paid part of the product as you're now trying to suggest and not a bonus than you should have no issue with everyone getting them as everyone paid for the product, and they are not a "bonus" but instead an integral part of the product included in the associated cost that everyone paid.

Discount the marketing and they need not be exclusive as the marketing doesn't matter, include it and they were free.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albinonewt View Post
And if these editions are still available for purchase, why do the items need to be in the C-Store?
Conversely, why not? If I can still get them from GameStop why should I not be able to get them from Cryptic? Your argument is that they should be unavailable to the average consumer, which they aren't and never have been.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albinonewt View Post
Well, I generally work under the assumption that whatís on store shelves today wonít be there forever. But thatís beside the point. Cryptic has now removed any doubt that I can wait forever before getting something from the store. If I wasnít 100% sure maybe I would have bought something that Iím now going to wait on, perhaps for eternity
Quick! Go buy a lifetime supply of Oreos! They could be gone tomorrow!

Seriously? You actually thought for a second they were going to stop offering a digital product while the game is still viable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albinonewt View Post
Budgeting doesnít imply knowledge of marketing decisions and how they impact, you know, the budget?
Actually no, it doesn't. A knowledge of accounting does not apply an in depth understanding of marketing anymore than a knowledge of marketing implies an in depth understand of accounting. There will be frames of reference that crossover, but the two fields are distinct. That's why the majority of companies have both a marketing division and an accounting division which consult each other.

Companies are, without exception, a financial endeavour and thus are top to bottom about money and a function of budget. If accountants were, on average, knowledgeable enough to offer sage advice on all of the financial concerns of a marketing matter then marketing divisions would not exist and their duties would be handled by the accountants. Maybe you have this knowledge. Perhaps you are a marketing wizard, but that would make you the exception and not the rule.

Also, Oreos. Just... Oreos. Kinda has me thinking you're not the exception. You may be a great accountant, but I have to question your take on marketing there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albinonewt View Post
Bottom line, one of the most important marketing and sales tools is the promotion. Cryptic has disarmed itself of this tool. That will likely have long term financial consequences.
They've offered part of a package deal that is still on sale today, and a few one-time free promotions as paid products now as opposed to being given away. You think this has removed the value of future promotions? No, lessened it sure, but value is still there. You should be able to recognize that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albinonewt View Post
I would bet anything that this is completely driven by the designers and their concept of fairness and not a marketing team that understands the importance of limited time offers and promotions. Management would have had to sign off on it, but donít kid yourself where this idea came from.
Yes. That makes sense. Businessmen always let artists make the important decisions.

Limited time offers are of value, but so is selling a product, and in this case the commodity in question was being given away initially as a limited time offer, and then sold later. So that offer still has some worth, or the object in question would be free. And in the video game industry this has become par for the course. Selling pre-order bonuses down the line is the standard. Hell, the exclusive content from the Limited Edition version of Jade Empire on the Xbox (which was ten dollars more) has since been given away to all owners, and was included free, along with other content, in the PC version released later. That extra ten dollars on the Limited Edition bought exclusive access to a character and a weapon for several months.You don't seem to recognize that early access to something is a perk in and of itself, and that it is worth something. That is why people become early adopters despite knowing full well that there will be price drops in the future.

This is the way the industry exists today, if you can't accept this you might want to start shopping for a new hobby where you can be assured of limited runs like stamp collecting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albinonewt View Post
Yeah, reasonable as being defined as agreeing with your opinion. lol
No, reasonable being defined as not seeking to deny others something which costs you nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albinonewt View Post
3.
Then you probably stop buying it, just like when a cryptic item that was supposed to be rare no longer is, youíll likely stop buying it
Well, the prices of all games go down with time, with the exceptions of a few rare old cartridge games that are impossible to find.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albinonewt View Post
But it means participating in the sale is forever off the table.
Yes, the sale IS off the table. The free pre-order bonuses aren't free anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albinonewt View Post
And yes, we were dealing with limited quantities. Theyíre limited editions after all.
No a Deluxe Edition and a Collector's Edition which are still in production.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albinonewt View Post
4.
Right now, that effect early adopters. But if the same stuff is in place a year from now it no longer is a reward for being a first adaptor. So maybe something will be in place permanently that will only be within the reach of the early adopters. But right now Iím betting against it based on the fungible definition of exclusive
You will ALWAYS be ahead of the game because you've subscribed earlier. You will always have something that people who subscribed 100 days or more after you do not have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albinonewt View Post
5. Quote:

Really, you bought the promotional item when it was originally offered?
No, no one bought them when they were originally offered as they were free. They are for sale now.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 67
06-16-2010, 10:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Albinonewt View Post
Wrong on both counts. A) I purchased one of the limited quantity cups from someone who did participate in the promotion. That doesnít undermine the rareness of the promotion in any way because the promotion is still limited to the same number of cups with the code
Except that you purchased one of the limited quantity cups from someone who did participate in the promotion, and did not participate in the promotion yourself. You were arguing that the reward should be for participation or early adoption, and not just given to those who pay.

Pick an argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albinonewt View Post
B) Sammy Somebody can do the same. They can log onto Ebay or go to a store that still had the limited in quantity code and purchase it. Again, that in no way undermines the promotion. Having new codes created in addition to the promotion codes does undermine the promotion.
Except that none of the promotions were advertised to be of limited quantities that I know of, except perhaps the shuttle and that's not in the C-Store. I seem to recall all pre-orders being honoured with bonuses, thus quantities weren't limited, just demand at the time.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 68
06-16-2010, 10:37 AM
Everyone here realizes that these items were never promised that they would not be sold in something like the C-Store right....?

If you read the pre order FAQ... or one of those FAQ's (I forget which one) it said that all the items would eventually be sold in the C-Store after launch.

FYI - Lifer here and multi box purchaser for various items and no I am not ****ed at all.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 69
06-16-2010, 11:06 AM
I was going to fisk you, but you keep repeating the same nonsense over and over, so Iíll hit the key points and wish you on your way
1) Once an ďexclusiveĒ promotion is opened up the entire population of the game it ceases to be exclusive. There is no longer any practical limit to the number of these items that can be in existence where as previously there was. Thus, the claim on the box that this was exclusive content was a lie.
2) You seem pretty well obsessed with my qualifications to judge the truthfulness and effectiveness of Crypticís departure from the gameís claim of exclusive content. I wonder, what makes you so qualified?
3) And, yes, when you say reasonable you mean someone who agrees with you. As you have stated, the boxes with the content are out there. Since I am not removing them from the shelves I am denying nobody anything.
4) Stuff I pay for isnít free. If I give you money for a box, with the understanding that the stuff inside the box is now my property, then I have paid for it.
5) A huge problem with a number of game companies, in many mediums, is that the creative team so often functions, at least partly, as the administration team. Which is why so many of them fail miserably.

This last one is crucial, so pay attention Cryptic
In business there is a very simple concept of supply and demand. So simple that every person reading this has already heard of it and can probably give a decent definition of what it means. One of the key elements here is scarcity. If an item is scarce and the demand exceeds the supply whatever the object weíre talking about is becomes more valuable. If supply exceeds demand the object becomes less valuable. In between the two extremes of zero supply and infinite supply is where you will find your maximum profit level. You have chosen infinite supply, and in the long term it will hurt you. It will hurt you in future sales of games, in your ability to attract early adopters, and in your ability to upsell.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 70
06-16-2010, 11:28 AM
I don't think they should add everything to the C-Store, I'm fine with the uniforms, and all that other cosmetic stuff that they just added, being there, but I have to agree with cryptic's current C-store policy regarding the other stuff. They shouldn't offer game changing items in C-Store, you shouldn't be able to buy an advantage over other players, if cryptic did that, they might as well be promoting Goldselling and powerleveling.
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