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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 71
06-16-2010, 01:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Albinonewt View Post
I was going to fisk you, but you keep repeating the same nonsense over and over, so Iíll hit the key points and wish you on your way
I'd make a pot/kettle comment here... except what I've posted isn't nonsense. You're just being childish.

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1) Once an ďexclusiveĒ promotion is opened up the entire population of the game it ceases to be exclusive. There is no longer any practical limit to the number of these items that can be in existence where as previously there was. Thus, the claim on the box that this was exclusive content was a lie.
Okay, so where is my Next Generation Uniform that I've never bought? By your logic I should have it, as it's not exclusive. Apparently I'm not excluded, yet I can't select that option in the game. I am just as excluded now as I was at launch, due to the fact that I have not gone out of my way to get it. I could do that then, and I can do it now, but I chose and choose not to. Thus I am excluded, and you can go back to feeling good about yourself.

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2) You seem pretty well obsessed with my qualifications to judge the truthfulness and effectiveness of Crypticís departure from the gameís claim of exclusive content. I wonder, what makes you so qualified?
When did I say I was qualified, or make a claim in an attempt to try and give my opinion more weight than it would be able to garner on it's own merit? I've never made more of my opinion than simple opinion, you on the other hand are trying to pass yourself as an expert despite what you're presenting suggesting otherwise. I wasn't the one self-aggrandizing with the likes of, "Oh, what would someone like *ME* know about this, I'm just an expert of a field I just stated is not entirely my own!"

I've questioned your qualifications because you seemed fit to present them as though they were meaningful, all while apparently being unable to grasp simple related concepts.

You can't grasp that timed exclusive access is meaningful, and one of the primary reasons early adopters of just about anything exist (pre-order bonuses aren't the reason, FYI, considering most things don't even offer them). You thought Cryptic was going to pull products off their digital store in time based on nothing, despite them being able to keep them up at basically no cost to themselves and garner a continued stream of revenue, and you believe this is a sound move, from a marketing standpoint (basically tossing money down the drain for no reason other than to do so). You also apparently didn't bother to read the disclaimer in the FAQ that Cryptic had up prior to launch saying that this might happen, so you didn't bother to read the fine print in a marketing campaign and now are complaining because you didn't think to be bothered. You also frequently keep trying to misrepresent how the product was marketed and rely on that marketing, all the while discounting portions of the marketing when it's in your best interest (and only then). Really? I mean... really? And you want us to weight your words more heavily because you believe yourself to be some kind of expert?

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3) And, yes, when you say reasonable you mean someone who agrees with you. As you have stated, the boxes with the content are out there. Since I am not removing them from the shelves I am denying nobody anything.
Except of course you keep wavering back and forth between the pre-order bonuses AND the special edition bonuses. Some are available easily in boxes on store shelves, some are not. And if you're not denying anyone anything, then why do you care if the wares are disseminated via another method (which we were told might happen) at a fee to those who want them?

I am starting to believe you bought a plethora of copies at launch with the bonus items and have been holding onto them in some grand half-baked scheme to sell them later on EBay to make copious amounts of money, and now you're of course heartbroken because Cryptic has foiled your scheme. Haven't you ever read Batman or seen a James Bond movie? You should know by now that all schemes get foiled.

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4) Stuff I pay for isnít free. If I give you money for a box, with the understanding that the stuff inside the box is now my property, then I have paid for it.
Well, if you discount the marketing and they weren't a free bonus, but a part of the product and a part which you paid for then they weren't exclusive either. They were a part of the product everyone bought and should not only be available in the marketplace, but free to everyone since they paid what you paid for a boxed copy of Star Trek Online, thus obviously they paid for them as well, including the ones they did not receive. Apparently their content just got lost in the shuffle...

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5) A huge problem with a number of game companies, in many mediums, is that the creative team so often functions, at least partly, as the administration team. Which is why so many of them fail miserably.
You make broad, generalized statements about things obviously not your field, even by your own admission. And you wonder why I question your qualifications...? Are you running the majority of video game publishers and thus intimately familiar with their relationship with the involved development houses? Because I somehow doubt it.

Also, very few publishers are going out of business (you do know the difference between a developer and a publisher, right?). And actually the major qualm that developers tend to have is that publishers don't give them enough power or say... on the creative end of things. If you think any developer short of Bioware or Valve is given ANY say on the business end of their wares then I have to question if you've ever even taken a passing glance at the video game industry.

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This last one is crucial, so pay attention Cryptic
In business there is a very simple concept of supply and demand. So simple that every person reading this has already heard of it and can probably give a decent definition of what it means. One of the key elements here is scarcity. If an item is scarce and the demand exceeds the supply whatever the object weíre talking about is becomes more valuable. If supply exceeds demand the object becomes less valuable. In between the two extremes of zero supply and infinite supply is where you will find your maximum profit level. You have chosen infinite supply, and in the long term it will hurt you. It will hurt you in future sales of games, in your ability to attract early adopters, and in your ability to upsell.
These items were scare for five months. They are only on sale now, giving the previous owners five months of exclusive use. You completely discount the value of that, which is laughable. There is a reason we see corporations like Microsoft entering into agreements with Activision for exclusivity (even time-limited) of the content to be released for their Call of Duty games. Early access has value which you seem to miss. This is also why people buy games, consoles and PC hardware like graphics cards at launch, despite knowing full well that prices will drop. They get to enjoy and experience those things before others, and thus the value comes from that; the enjoyment.

In your world, apparently, the only enjoyment one can have is in the bragging rights of depriving others eternally of things to which you have gained access since you seem to discount all else.

You're also ignoring that game prices are pretty much fixed at launch, and only go down from there. So your supply and demand idea is... kind of absurd. They aren't going to drive up Star Trek Online sales by not selling the game or content for it.

The most they will be doing is withering their ability to sell multiple boxes to single consumers in the future. Not entirely eliminating it as some people will still always want early access, but reducing it to a degree, perhaps even a significant one.

Here's the thing... who bloody cares? That is not a business where the bulk of revenue comes from boxes in stores. Why do you think MMOs are marked down so quickly at retail? Where the money comes from is subscriptions and expansions, not trying to get Norman Nobody to buy eight boxes of the game at launch so he can get six extra in-game shirts, a whistle and a bell to tie around his neck.

This game, at least in part, is meant to appeal to Star Trek fans. Forever locking out access to iconic Star Trek items (like the uniforms) in your estimation is going to win them a plethora of new subscriptions? Seems more likely to drive away those who've only recently become interested in the title in my estimation. But hey, you're probably a Professional Star Trek Fan Evaluator too and you'll be able to assure me now how in your expert opinion that keeping classically themed Star Trek items out of a Star Trek game makes Star Trek fans giddy. Right? I mean, you know accounting, you know marketing, you know the video game industry from both the developer's and publisher's standpoint... you gotta know this too I'm sure.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 72
06-16-2010, 02:50 PM
Ok, seriously, Iím done. Claim victory you like, for I yield. Your last couple of posts have been little more than throwing accusations around me and talking in circles. As you really have no new questions or new arguments aside from those presented I donít anticipate myself having anything new to say. Your arguments of full of contradictions (theyíre on the shelf now and theyíre scarce, for example). And Iím well the past the age where Iím willing to just shout back and forth about the same thing until someone gets carpel tunnel and forfeits on account of injury.
For the myriad of reasons Iíve stated this is a bad decision, one that can potentially cause a significant future revenue problem. But maybe it might not, I donít have a crystal ball, just a lot of experience with this kind of thing. But, and I mean this sincerely, you need scarcity to drive demand. Targeted timed promotions would be much more effective than what theyíre doing now. And while I allege no legal wrong doing making exclusive content (whether it was explicity stated online or not, since we all know game forums are generally used by a very small portion of the gameís populace) available like this breaks trust with customers. Certainly not all of them as a big chunk of you have no problem with it, but once you lose trust, even with a relatively small portion of your base, youíve lost it, and you likely wonít get it back.
The funny Dťjŗ vu for me here is I had almost this exact same conversation with the Neocron people right before that game disappeared (although I hear its sequel has/had some life to it in Europe) and then a few years later having the same conversation with the 3DO people right before Heroes Vís lack of multi-player put the final nail in their coffin.
These kind of things matter. And if the a population of users on the forums donít appreciate it thatís certainly their right. But I hope the folks at Cryptic think long and hard about the message they just sent, and how it could impact them in the future.

And just to address your final point. No, I donít necessarily think itís a great idea to keep star trek fans from using their favorite uniforms. But, I donít think itís a good idea to market them as exclusives and then change your mind. Even accepting the Cryptic realizes now it made a mistake and it wants to put them in the C-Store now I continue to believe (as I said in another post) that some sort of other item should be offered to players that registered with the appropriate CD key. I get wanting to walk back something that they may regret, but the way theyíre doing it is going to create a distrust that will likely have consequences beyond this single game.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 73
06-16-2010, 02:58 PM
So then that is a no?

No one here knew that before the game launched cryptic said all the pre order items would be made available to everyone though something like the C-Store?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 74
06-16-2010, 04:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valdeck View Post
So then that is a no?

No one here knew that before the game launched cryptic said all the pre order items would be made available to everyone though something like the C-Store?
I don't know about anyone else, but i'm just irked that they're out so soon on the C-Store. I would have no problem at all had they simply waited a few months more.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 75
06-16-2010, 05:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilain View Post
I don't know about anyone else, but i'm just irked that they're out so soon on the C-Store. I would have no problem at all had they simply waited a few months more.
*shrug* I do not honestly mind. I mean most of them I do not even use these days the few that I do I am well over caring if someone else runs around in the same outfit as me or not. Sure the exclusivity is fun but at the same time... well it does nothing at the end game which is where I have been for quite a while.

This month, last month or another 6 months from now at some point they release them and they are out there so I figure might as well let go sooner than later other wise no matter when they release them I could find reasons to be upset about it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 76
06-16-2010, 06:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Albinonewt View Post
Ok, seriously, Iím done. Claim victory you like, for I yield.
Why does everyone always say they're done right before they continue to argue some more? It seems the hope is, of course, that if they claim some form of finality there before throwing one last punch that they believe they're going to get in the last hit with impunity. For the record, that never works, and also it's exceedingly infrequent that when someone says that it actually ends up being their last post in the topic where they say it.

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Your last couple of posts have been little more than throwing accusations around me and talking in circles.
Throwing accusations? Beyond questioning your expertise, which you were so intent on sharing, the closest I came was a joke about an Ebay scheme. As far as talking in circles goes, well there's one way to stop me from repeating my responses to your arguments: address them. You don't. You provided a stance, I rebutted and you... restated your stance without addressing my rebuttal at all, and then occasionally you've chosen things I've said out of context about another related matter, and tried to apply them improperly to the first matter to show a non-existent flaw in my argument, when you're in fact generating a second argument that doesn't pan, that I never made, and attributing it to me in an attempt to discredit me. That's called a "straw man."

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Your arguments of full of contradictions (theyíre on the shelf now and theyíre scarce, for example).
*sigh* And here we will get to your Straw Man. I'd like to think it was a simple mistake on your part, but I blatantly pointed out the flaw in your attempt with my last post, making that unlikely, and instead probably a simple attempt at obfuscation, at trying to muddy my argument with trickery.

If you want to follow the twisted path of the matter you're referring to here backward, it started with me making a statement about someone else entirely being reasonable. At this point, my first post in this thread, in response to you I specifically made note of "free pre-order bonuses which are now being charged for" and placed emphasis there. You jumped on what I said to the other poster like a starved cougar on a one-legged doe, suggesting that I define reasonable as someone who agrees with me, to which I replied to with, "No, reasonable being defined as not seeking to deny others something which costs you nothing."

You followed this by suggesting that YOU were being reasonable by referencing something I said previously to another poster about the Collector's Edition and Deluxe Edition, and how they were still on shelves, and thus you were not trying to deny anyone anything, entirely ignoring how the pre-order bonus items that I specifically mentioned to you are not in either of those editions and that you very much are arguing for denying people them, making your statement a blatant untruth.

You're now specifically trying to blur the two issues (pre-order items and CE/DE items) and rely on something unrelated to poke imaginary holes in my argument. I have specifically pointed to pre-order items in terms of rarity, and not the CE/DE items. I have pointed out the difference between the two, and you have ignored it in favour of your straw man.

Also, after your suggestion of reasonability and claim that you don't seek to deny access, with the CE/DE in stores being your evidence of that, I asked why you would then balk at items being in the C-Store and got no response. If you aren't trying to deny access, the CE/DE do not qualify as justification, as they do NOT cover the pre-order items. Your evidence also does nothing to explain the objection to anything in the C-Store on any level. If you aren't trying to make access an issue, then why are you apparently trying take issue over a method of distribution meant to ease access? No matter how you slice it, what you said quite simply must contain an element of untruth.

This hearkens back to your reliance on one of the three words used in regards to how these items were marketed, while simultaneously denying two thirds of it outright. You did this specifically in relation to the pre-order content. You point to the "exclusive free bonuses" line that was put out there in regards to these wares, but you focus solely on word "exclusive" and say it must be exclusive (and your own fictitious definition of exclusive which has a lack of any limitation implied in the word, when there is no implication of limits either way) because it was marketed as so. You then abruptly and flatly state that you feel wronged because you paid for this content that was "included in the purchase price."

You just can't do that and be entirely honest. If you believed that content to be an element of what you were paying for, and not a "free bonus" that was being given to you in addition to what was included in the purchase price, then you're disregarding what it was marketed as. You are denying the marketing outright, and yes, you did that. You can't do so without denying the entirety, including that it was exclusive, or else you're trying to pick and choose only that which suits your argument, while disregarding the rest out of hand, simply because it undermines you. This is disingenuous in the extreme, to the point of, again, requiring an element of untruth from you. You must simultaneously suggest that the marketing was gospel with one mouth, while discrediting it all as bull spit with the other. That doesn't work, it's called cherry picking, and like a straw man that does not make for a valid argument.

Very much seems like smoke and mirrors on your part.

The only thing you could arguably say is a contradiction (which still isn't, but could be interpreted as such based off the language), would be my initial response to you, compared to the response I made to the other poster, but that doesn't relate to the argument you're trying to make. For full disclosure and clarity, I'll point out what I'm referring to.

I said both:

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The problem being that most of these things aren't particularly rare as many of the items can still be gained by buying the involved product. The Deluxe and Collector's Editions can still easily be purchased, for instance, from many retailers and currently at a discounted price from launch.
... and...

Quote:
You do realize most of this stuff was free pre-order bonuses which are now being charged for, right? So you actually got a lot of it with the cheapest iteration. The two versions which were offered at a cost (the Deluxe and Collector's Editions) are still available, now at a lower price (as one would expect from an older title).
One could, if they specifically wanted to misinterpret me, take that to mean that I was saying most of the items were both from the CE/DE -and- free pre-orders. Which is not what I stated, in fact. I specifically said in that first portion that "most of these things aren't particularly rare" indicating that some are, and used the DE and CE as a "for instance," meaning they were not the only source I was referring to, just one example, and continued on with, "You can also find a number of code-based items up on Ebay," to show there is still some way to obtain some of the rarer items, as well as the commonly available CE/DE items, thus suggesting that the collective of bonus items weren't that rare, even if some are, and if the items in the CE/DE are the minority of what was offered at launch.

My arguments don't contradict, Heck, what your suggesting was my contradictory argument, that the pre-order items are hard to obtain and the CE/DE are not isn't even an argument it's a statement of fact, or if you'd like to question it's validity, then it's evidence in question. So I definitely didn't contradict my own argument since that doesn't even qualify as an argument.

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And just to address your final point. No, I donít necessarily think itís a great idea to keep star trek fans from using their favorite uniforms. But, I donít think itís a good idea to market them as exclusives and then change your mind.
Which raises two issues, firstly you've been arguing that this is a bad move to offer these items, you have not previously qualified it, and in fact stated this as your expert opinion. You now seem to be acknowledging that not doing so is a bad move as well.

Second, they didn't change their mind. The pre-order FAQ made it clear that the items could eventually be sold in their store, and I can assure that the fine print on the bonus material made no promises about remaining exclusive for more than five months (or even five months).

People just assumed.

The borg captain was marketed as a part of the Lifetime package. The press release never even mentioned exclusivity, many people just assumed that would be the only way to get it even if that was never mentioned. I know because I've had this discussion with someone just after launch who assumed it was an exclusive deal, and I pointed out that it wasn't, even linking to the press material and various websites musing over whether that word not being used might mean it would end up in the C-Store sooner rather than later, some speculating that it could happen within the month. So far it still is exclusive, but there was never any assurances made on that concerning the borg captain.

Assumptions one party might have about a deal, do not shape the reality of the deal.

The information, in relation to the pre-orders and the borg, was available prior to purchase. Is it reasonable to expect everyone to hunt down every piece of information about every product they buy? No. On the other hand, if you're going to do something unreasonable like buy four copies a video game and a Lifetime subscription to it so that you don't need those packages, and are only getting them because you want what is clearly offered as "bonus" with them, then it's not only wise but it should be expected that you're going to do some digging and figure out the exact nature of that "bonus" before plunking down $400+ dollars.

You know this. Objectively you have to know this is correct.

If you thought otherwise, didn't do the research despite the information being there, and made a rash purchase you regret you have every right to feel bad about that. You made a mistake, everyone does occasionally, but the blame is not with Cryptic. Denying your own mistake and blaming them is fruitless and dishonest.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 77
06-16-2010, 07:02 PM
As much as this isnt even close to what some people payed... I payed almost $100 Canadian for the STO Collectors Edition GameStop Preorder so meanwhile now there was almost no point to having payed so much for it when i could have just wait 4 months and gotten my TNG and VOY/DS9 Uniforms for 10 bucks....i dont care about the fact that my TOS Connie is available and i dont care about being special it was just a bad move for Cryptic to put the TNG and VOY/DS9 stuff on the C-Store since now only Trek collectors would by a copy of the collectors STO
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 78
06-16-2010, 07:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyHappyJoyJoy View Post
Second, they didn't change their mind. The pre-order FAQ made it clear that the items could eventually be sold in their store, and I can assure that the fine print on the bonus material made no promises about remaining exclusive for more than five months (or even five months).
Happyhappyjoyjoy, I don't know if anyone's going to read the entire post you've made. I am sure there was a way for you to make it concise and succinct.

Anyhow, I am not sure if you are aware of this, but the "Pre-Order FAQ" page wasn't available until well after the game was introduced in the market. I hope that this helps with your argument about how the interested buyers should've done "proper" research. In most of the major MMOs, when the Companies claim that the items are exclusive, they usually mean it isn't available by other means besides through the original means.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 79
06-16-2010, 08:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monopolist
Happyhappyjoyjoy, I don't know if anyone's going to read the entire post you've made. I am sure there was a way for you to make it concise and succinct.
Well yes, I could have been more concise I suppose. My lengthy posts, however, are in response to multiple arguments made about multiple topics, and they're in response to someone who has already been misinterpreting what I've said, and did so when I was previously being concise. As such, more detail, and thus more words and complexity, are required as a response... and still the person I was mainly responding to (perhaps intentionally) was misinterpreting what I was saying, even attributing arguments to me that I hadn't made.

My first post, in fact was very concise. It was three short paragraphs, two of them only consisting of only two sentences.

You took one word out of it and wrote two paragraphs about that alone. You chided me in both. You used utter tripe to do so. Over one word. That in the scheme of things you got wrong. You weren't so succinct then, were you?

Still being "cute" I see.

Quote:
Anyhow, I am not sure if you are aware of this, but the "Pre-Order FAQ" page wasn't available until well after the game was introduced in the market.
Wow, THERE you were concise. Free from all kinds of detail, unfortunately when people are concise they usually cut out the superfluous and leave in all the relevant information. You did not.

The pre-order FAQ page wasn't available when the pre-orders were first announced, but it WAS out well before launch, in fact it was last updated nearly a month prior to the game's release. That is more than enough time to cancel a pre-order at any retailer associated with a pre-order bonus, in fact with most you require as little as one day.

Since your pre-order with these companies actually would have given you access to the week long head start, you actually could have played the game and still cancelled your order. So more than enough time and opportunity was given to evaluate your decisions and change your mind if you felt you were entering into a deal you didn't feel comfortable with.

Cryptic even refunded some of the multiple month and lifetime subscriptions post-launch.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 80
06-16-2010, 08:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyHappyJoyJoy View Post
Well yes, I could have been more concise I suppose. My lengthy posts, however, are in response to multiple arguments made about multiple topics, and they're in response to someone who has already been misinterpreting what I've said, and did so when I was previously being concise. As such, more detail, and thus more words and complexity, are required as a response... and still the person I was mainly responding to (perhaps intentionally) was misinterpreting what I was saying, even attributing arguments to me that I hadn't made.

My first post, in fact was very concise. It was three short paragraphs, two of them only consisting of only two sentences.

You took one word out of it and wrote two paragraphs about that alone. You chided me in both. You used utter tripe to do so. Over one word. That in the scheme of things you got wrong. You weren't so succinct then, were you?

Still being "cute" I see.



Wow, THERE you were concise. Free from all kinds of detail, unfortunately when people are concise they usually cut out the superfluous and leave in all the relevant information. You did not.

The pre-order FAQ page wasn't available when the pre-orders were first announced, but it WAS out well before launch, in fact it was last updated nearly a month prior to the game's release. That is more than enough time to cancel a pre-order at any retailer associated with a pre-order bonus, in fact with most you require as little as one day.

Since your pre-order with these companies actually would have given you access to the week long head start, you actually could have played the game and still cancelled your order. So more than enough time and opportunity was given to evaluate your decisions and change your mind if you felt you were entering into a deal you didn't feel comfortable with.

Cryptic even refunded some of the multiple month and lifetime subscriptions post-launch.
My sincere apologies for my misunderstanding or the lack of understanding.
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