Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
I wanted to provide you with feedback regarding my experience and observations of the Science specialty. This will not be a rant, just a note of concern regarding the Science career path in STO...more properly what it has become and what I fear it will become in the future. This applies to PvE, though PvP has it's own SCI issues.

Science ships by their very nature are equipped with fewer weapons slots than any other ship. I get that and it makes sense; however, it leaves them without a conventional kill shot found in both cruisers and escorts. I am not saying they cannot kill...only that the length of time required and the poor TAC support available leave Science ships vulnerable for a longer period of time versus larger ships than any other class.

Now, prior to 1.1 and 1.2, Science skills adequately compensated for this conventional weakness; however, now they do not. The skills themselves work pretty well. I have been impressed with the later skills...VM, TR, GW...as each has it's own function in a particular area of combat; however, with each having an emphasis on shield reduction to be effective, as individual skills used playing solo, most of the time, they provide a graphics bonanza and not so much an effective way to kill something.

And again, part of the problem here is the lack of conventional firepower which limits the ability to exploit the enemies caught in the grip of one of these skills. With skills being weakened, it only compounds the problem. Where I have seen these skills most effective is in team settings with multiple players pounding away as an enemy is caught in the web.

Now I for one do not believe Science is dead. It requires rethinking to be sure though; however, from my own experience and from reading threads on this subject, It has definitely been hurt as a legitimate path to pursue in the game. Granted some people complain when their favorite skill or group of skills gets changed; however, be that as it may, there is legitimacy to the discouragement players feel in this specialty.

Here is the confirmation of that IMHO, SCI players are turning their ships into escorts, ignoring their science skills altogether. Many others are changing ships to an escort or a cruiser, respecing for a different specialty. This is a broad trend from what I can tell and is an indication of the dissatisfaction SCI specialty players feel.

My fear for the future is that this specialty will be weakened further, effectively driving away any player who is in sci or considering sci. It will become a specialty that has no teeth and that will only be playable in a group setting. I have worked hard myself to build my sci to RA 5. I do not want to see it pulled out from underneath me. Alot of time invested only to see it so dissatisfying to play that I have to dump it altogether...that's 3 months of effort all for nothing.

As I said, this is simply a fear, one that I hope you will take into consideration when you consider your next round of changes. The specialty is playable now, though it is far more difficult than before. It used to be playable equally well individually or in a group, but now it is best used in groups with solo play being...not impossible, but requiring a great deal of effort.

Thank you for your consideration.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
06-13-2010, 01:07 PM
I have to agree. The problem with science ships are several fold.

First off it does the least amount of damage of any ship class. It has the least weapon slots. No one argues that it should be otherwise, but it has to be taken into account.

Second, with the changes to aux power, any science ship running at full weapons power now performs worse with their science skills, because the baseline has been put higher. The flip side of this is that running at full aux to maximize science abilities doesn't compensate a science ship's offensive ability enough for taking power away from weapons.

Third, with the changes to both aux power and science powers, science ship survivability is actually lower. Stacking issues aside, science ships now have some significant windows in their defensive coverage. Hazard emitters now can't be running continuously. Science team offers no resistance bonus to shields. Transfer shield strength has the same issue as hazard emitters and still offers less resistance than science team used to, even at full aux.

And worst of all on this point, running at full aux instead of full shields is actually worse for personal survivability, from my experience. Yes even though HE and TSS scale with aux power, you are better running at full power to shields, getting the regeneration and resistance bonus, and using your science powers at whatever aux setting you can muster with the leftover power.

Fourth problem is the skill distribution. Science ship captains can't really afford to neglect weapon skills because of the lack of weapon power already. Science ship captains obviously can't afford to neglect science skills, and in fact need a lot of points in that area, unlike escorts and cruisers. But they also are ill advised to ignore engineering skills for power concerns. Escorts and cruisers, on the other hand, can safely ignore 90% of science skills because they won't be using most of them ever, and shunt all their skills into weapon and engineering skills.

In fact, because of this, cruiser captains are likely to have more aux power than science ships! They can safely ignore the tier 5 science skills and put points into aux performance, which is highly recommended in some builds, where a science captain in a science ship generally can't afford to do that, and loses options if they do.


In the end, I think its highly debatable whether a science ship running at full aux to use science skills is more useful to a team than another escort or cruiser. Science ships are not useless, but they are definitely on the weak side of things right now, and have a host of issues that need to be addressed to improve them.

Science skills can sometimes be a game changer, but often enough I find myself ignoring that opponent's gravity well or tyken's rift, even if I get stuck in them, and photonic shockwave or viral matrix is usually just a momentary annoyance.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
06-13-2010, 02:45 PM
The person that just posted above me has probably the best explanation of the problems with Science, great job!! Cryptic should hire you part time as an advisor
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
06-14-2010, 07:02 AM
OMG Foxrocks! The whole thing couldn't have been stated better!!! You truely ROCK!

And still people cry up about OP sci-skills....and you know what? they ARE out there!

We have people out there, fully specced in one skill, with a deflector specialized for same skill, and with 4x +30consoles... And they DO get overpowered effect.. And then someone is hit with this, and they cry NERF!! And cryptic are trying to nerf these ships back into line, and at the same time are unintentionally nerfing all other sci-ships that have a flexible setup and no +30 consoles out of the game...

Solution? I belive i have one:

1) Un-nerf consoles
2) Place a cap on points from sci consoles at 50 or 60, making use of more than 2 consoles of same type a waste.
3) give us +15 or +20 Aux, or give us +10 naux AND +10 Shield

I think with the ability to get 2 or 3 abilities running fairly well, at the same time, we actually could make a difference. Today, we can choose to get one power to perform almost OK, but then ALL other abilities will suck...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
06-14-2010, 07:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dassem_Ultor
OMG Foxrocks! The whole thing couldn't have been stated better!!! You truely ROCK!

And still people cry up about OP sci-skills....and you know what? they ARE out there!

We have people out there, fully specced in one skill, with a deflector specialized for same skill, and with 4x +30consoles... And they DO get overpowered effect.. And then someone is hit with this, and they cry NERF!! And cryptic are trying to nerf these ships back into line, and at the same time are unintentionally nerfing all other sci-ships that have a flexible setup and no +30 consoles out of the game...

Solution? I belive i have one:

1) Un-nerf consoles
2) Place a cap on points from sci consoles at 50 or 60, making use of more than 2 consoles of same type a waste.
3) give us +15 or +20 Aux, or give us +10 naux AND +10 Shield

I think with the ability to get 2 or 3 abilities running fairly well, at the same time, we actually could make a difference. Today, we can choose to get one power to perform almost OK, but then ALL other abilities will suck...
I agree, we really have to focus all are skills and stack consoles to be really effective with a certain skill type, at most that can be 3 but usually 2 skills; I can stack everything for Spatial Enomolies and have a pretty kick-ass Gravity Well, but every other skill is going to suffer.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
06-15-2010, 02:24 PM
/agree foxrocks
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
06-16-2010, 09:37 AM
I am in full agreement with this thread's first two posters - they outline thoughts I have had myself.

It is my firm belief that science abilities which are rewarding to use are those whom have obvious, visible performance effects - it was one of the reasons why Viral Matrix - as it formerly was - was so popular. (I personally never mastered Tyken's Rift and never found it to be useful and I've always felt Tachyon Beam was weaksauce)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
06-17-2010, 04:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dassem_Ultor
We have people out there, fully specced in one skill, with a deflector specialized for same skill, and with 4x +30consoles... And they DO get overpowered effect.. And then someone is hit with this, and they cry NERF!! And cryptic are trying to nerf these ships back into line, and at the same time are unintentionally nerfing all other sci-ships that have a flexible setup and no +30 consoles out of the game...

[some terrible ideas]

I think with the ability to get 2 or 3 abilities running fairly well, at the same time, we actually could make a difference. Today, we can choose to get one power to perform almost OK, but then ALL other abilities will suck...
I'm this guy. +22s not +30s but whatever.

What I see in this thread are people who don't use torpedoes, mines, offensive skills, or do any PvP. PvE is extremely easy I can't stress just how easy PvE is. As a brief description of how easy PvE is, I set my weapon power to maximum, engine to 1/4 impulse, all weapons on autofire, and watch TV for half an hour at a time, and that's how I do PvE. I don't even have to actually play. I just click the screen during commercial breaks so I don't get idled out while I literally don't watch my automatic systems kill thousands of mindless robot PvE mobs without trouble.

Oh, and btw, that even works for a science ship. If you're running into trouble in PvE space game, it's because you have no grasp at all on the game's mechanics, which doesn't surprise me and it's not your fault. This game has no manual, the mechanics change every ten days and would make a manual pointless anyway, and the majority of "help" that is available is just the blind leading the blind.

PvP, on the other hand, is against humans with brains who learn and adapt. If that's too much for you, that's okay. If PvE, however, is too much for you... well I just have to say man, you've got problems. I firmly believe that PvE needs a complete overhaul. Vastly lower numbers of vastly more intelligent enemies that give comparably boosted rewards, such that you are FORCED to learn how they (PvE enemies) are using skills together and defeat that in order to beat them... would help people figure out the game mechanics a lot easier and sooner with a great deal less whining, give more of a sense of challenge and therefore more sense of accomplishment, would engage the minds of players and cause them to become emotionally invested, and would also encourage teamwork and socialization due to players being unable to beat a given mission and going around looking for someone who did it already to ask them how it's done, and thereby end up getting tutored in how to more effectively set up their ships and use their skills. On top of all of that, it would prepare a lot more people for PvP a lot sooner and put a stop to all this "he beat me therefore he's OP" nonsense that results from fed PvE players *never* having to respawn in their entire career.

As to getting one power to work OK and all the others to suck... I can't even fathom what you're talking about. Send me a tell @Keldor in game until I respond and I'll help you set up a science ship for massive pwn.

Another common misperception is that PvP and PvE should need different balance. In other games this might be true, but other games are not this game, and this game has the dumbest AI in recorded history. Most of the bad guys in this game just sit there waiting to die, and never actually respond. This means that any PvP build, at all, will always pwn the hell out of PvE, and anyone who thinks that "gearing for PvE" is even a concept that makes sense. It's not, it doesn't, it never will, throw that idea out the window and let the garbage man deal with it.

As to your horrible idea suggestions that would limit people from being able to specialize and force them into a general playstyle that's exactly like yours... NO. EMBRACE DIVERSITY YOU FED!

Stop thinking in terms of "the best" and start thinking in terms of nonlinear equivalence. Cloak for example, is not the end of the world. When you can't see your enemy, and you know they can't go anywhere, it's a safe bet that they cloaked because of your superior firepower and are looking for a tactical advantage to exploit. To get them visible again, present them with an apparent weakness to attack, and be prepared to compensate. I know, nobody else brought up cloak, blah blah blah, what I'm trying to explain here is that there is no best, there is nothing that's "superior" to anything else, and there never will be. If there was a "best" it would become the "only" and that's just all there is to it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
06-17-2010, 04:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keldor
I'm this guy. +22s not +30s but whatever.

What I see in this thread are people who don't use torpedoes, mines, offensive skills, or do any PvP. PvE is extremely easy I can't stress just how easy PvE is. As a brief description of how easy PvE is, I set my weapon power to maximum, engine to 1/4 impulse, all weapons on autofire, and watch TV for half an hour at a time, and that's how I do PvE. I don't even have to actually play. I just click the screen during commercial breaks so I don't get idled out while I literally don't watch my automatic systems kill thousands of mindless robot PvE mobs without trouble.

Oh, and btw, that even works for a science ship. If you're running into trouble in PvE space game, it's because you have no grasp at all on the game's mechanics, which doesn't surprise me and it's not your fault. This game has no manual, the mechanics change every ten days and would make a manual pointless anyway, and the majority of "help" that is available is just the blind leading the blind.

PvP, on the other hand, is against humans with brains who learn and adapt. If that's too much for you, that's okay. If PvE, however, is too much for you... well I just have to say man, you've got problems. I firmly believe that PvE needs a complete overhaul. Vastly lower numbers of vastly more intelligent enemies that give comparably boosted rewards, such that you are FORCED to learn how they (PvE enemies) are using skills together and defeat that in order to beat them... would help people figure out the game mechanics a lot easier and sooner with a great deal less whining, give more of a sense of challenge and therefore more sense of accomplishment, would engage the minds of players and cause them to become emotionally invested, and would also encourage teamwork and socialization due to players being unable to beat a given mission and going around looking for someone who did it already to ask them how it's done, and thereby end up getting tutored in how to more effectively set up their ships and use their skills. On top of all of that, it would prepare a lot more people for PvP a lot sooner and put a stop to all this "he beat me therefore he's OP" nonsense that results from fed PvE players *never* having to respawn in their entire career.

As to getting one power to work OK and all the others to suck... I can't even fathom what you're talking about. Send me a tell @Keldor in game until I respond and I'll help you set up a science ship for massive pwn.

Another common misperception is that PvP and PvE should need different balance. In other games this might be true, but other games are not this game, and this game has the dumbest AI in recorded history. Most of the bad guys in this game just sit there waiting to die, and never actually respond. This means that any PvP build, at all, will always pwn the hell out of PvE, and anyone who thinks that "gearing for PvE" is even a concept that makes sense. It's not, it doesn't, it never will, throw that idea out the window and let the garbage man deal with it.

As to your horrible idea suggestions that would limit people from being able to specialize and force them into a general playstyle that's exactly like yours... NO. EMBRACE DIVERSITY YOU FED!

Stop thinking in terms of "the best" and start thinking in terms of nonlinear equivalence. Cloak for example, is not the end of the world. When you can't see your enemy, and you know they can't go anywhere, it's a safe bet that they cloaked because of your superior firepower and are looking for a tactical advantage to exploit. To get them visible again, present them with an apparent weakness to attack, and be prepared to compensate. I know, nobody else brought up cloak, blah blah blah, what I'm trying to explain here is that there is no best, there is nothing that's "superior" to anything else, and there never will be. If there was a "best" it would become the "only" and that's just all there is to it.
listen to this guy. and yes pve is so easy.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
06-17-2010, 06:13 AM
Thanks for giving your view on the situation!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keldor
I'm this guy. +22s not +30s but whatever.

What I see in this thread are people who don't use torpedoes, mines, offensive skills, or do any PvP. PvE is extremely easy I can't stress just how easy PvE is..
For PvE, I agree on normal mode, but on Elite you risk beeing one-shotted by HYT if your Brace for Impact is on CD... I actually find PvP to be a lot easier than elite Explores... In PvP the tools at hand are more effective, as the other players don't have 40k shields and 100k hulls like NPC's do... As for offensive skills? I KNOW I'm built for maximum DPS! I've been through almost any build you can think of, and in my current build i get killed in about 1 of 6 explo space patrols... Even if i have to pop the silly photonic fleet from time to time... (i hate that one, it's so gimmicky...)

Offensive skills? I'm running full power to weapons, 2x +6 consoles, and EPtoW1... I carry 5 beam arrays, 2 DBBs I also carry Q-torps, Tricob torps, Q-mines and Tricob mines for swapping in when needed... All weaps purple. I'm fully specced in q torps. I have a deflector that gives good bonus to Sensos, deflectors and astrometrics, as i need all 3.. (for S.Scan&SNB, ST&TSS, CPB). Do NOT accuse me of not focusing on offensive capability!! I even did a Recon-Escort ship with cannons and turrets... (actually worked ok, and alpha-strike with GW was fun, but i kept dying too often in it...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keldor
As to getting one power to work OK and all the others to suck... I can't even fathom what you're talking about. Send me a tell @Keldor in game until I respond and I'll help you set up a science ship for massive pwn.
What power can you make work ok? I'm currently running a Build specializing in CPB, as imo it's the last offensive power that actually justifies running high Aux. (I am also specced in sensors for Sensor Scan/SNB, Emitters for TB in PvP, and deflectors for ST/TSS) Sure, anomalies can be of some use in PvP, but the NPCs run too high power to be affected by tykens and have too much hull for GW to do much... Well, I doubt any build exists that i've not tried anyway... I'm usually running 2x +15astrom, 1x Deflectr, 1x Halon. consoles. but carry a load of equipment to swap around...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keldor
Another common misperception is that PvP and PvE should need different balance. In other games this might be true, but other games are not this game, and this game has the dumbest AI in recorded history..
I agree that PvP is ok balanced, but i'd like to be able to swap some of my heals to some cc... I can heal a lot better as Eng/Cruiser anyway. And I fully agree that the AI is incredibly dumb Only on elite setting they can one-shot you if they are lucky...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keldor
As to your horrible idea suggestions that would limit people from being able to specialize and force them into a general playstyle that's exactly like yours... NO. EMBRACE DIVERSITY YOU FED!
well... giving consoles +30 and capping them at +60 would NOT in any way diminish the ability to specialize! Except for the people who currently are running the pre-nerf consoles... For everyone else it would just mean we can specialize in 2 powers! Or do you think it's fair that a few players should be sitting on equipment that will make their ship better than that of any new player? Well, cryptic will do something about the +30 consoles soon anyway...

now, cryptic themselvs insist on people having to combine various powers to get any effect from them... it's their admitted goal for the sci ship.. only now, we can't get like 3 powers working well enough... Like it is today, everyone is respeccing into CPB or pure healer... now that's no diversity.. What if each ship could have 3 good powers? I think unnerfing the console would make it possible to get this.

So, if you are right, and it is still possible to specialize and do well, Cryptic will nerf us even more... They have as much as admitted that sci-abilities should only be effective when you combine 2 or 3 of them... and to run them at the same time, you have to spec into more then one system to avoid global CD...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keldor
Stop thinking in terms of "the best" and start thinking in terms of nonlinear equivalence. Cloak for example, is not the end of the world. When you can't see your enemy, and you know they can't go anywhere, it's a safe bet that they cloaked because of your superior firepower and are looking for a tactical advantage to exploit. To get them visible again, present them with an apparent weakness to attack, and be prepared to compensate. I know, nobody else brought up cloak, blah blah blah, what I'm trying to explain here is that there is no best, there is nothing that's "superior" to anything else, and there never will be. If there was a "best" it would become the "only" and that's just all there is to it.
First, cloak is not a problem a good sci-captain would worry about. Secondly, I have a flexibly specced captain, with almost no skill points on ground skills and carry a large team of sci-boffs to swap around for any given mission. What I'm seeing however, is that the usefull skill combos have been nerfed one by one until only a few are left, and after a while everyone will be using the same... no diversity...

Finally: Recon vs. DSSV? Any thoughts? I've been jumping back and forth and which ever i use, i wish i was using the other After 1.2 power became immensly important, but DSSV also lost all turning ability... I'm still as undecided as ever...
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