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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 91
11-19-2010, 07:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzun View Post
PatricianVetinari],

You are reading the chart correctly, but you aren't factoring in damage drop off due to range. Beam weapon drop off is from 10km to 6km. Canon drop off is from 10 km to 4km. I order to get the equivalent (or better) DPs with cannons/turret you have to get in a lot closer to your targets. With the (lack of) maneuverability of a Carrier, you may be better off with beams with their much better damage drop off.
Unless it's been changed, it used to be that range dropped off from 1 onwards with beams, and from 2 onwards with cannons. That's what The Engines Cannae Take It blog claims. However, these tests were done a long time ago, so it's possible something could have changed since then. To my knowledge this should still be accurate though, as I don't recall reading anything in the patch notes. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 92
11-19-2010, 07:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raso
Hmmm we need some insight into turret and beam combos at both inside and out side of 5km.
You can take my DPS figures and multiply them by the range drop off, and that should give you the information you need. Really it would be nice if we had some sort of web application that we could use to calculate this stuff on the fly.

My programming ability is fairly limited, but eventually I may be able to come up with something like that. I suppose a spreadsheet would also suffice.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 93
11-19-2010, 07:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatricianVetinari
Nagorak,

My KDF Engineer has just made LTG1 and he flies a Carrier. As you may or may not know, the carrier is very hard to turn (5.0 Turn Rate, even fully spec'd). Currently I've got 6x Beam Arrays, but after looking at your chart, I'm wondering if it might be better to go with 6x Turrets. From your 100 Power Chart:
6x Beams (Broadside) == 368 DPS.
3x Beams (Front/Aft only) == 262 DPS.
6x Turrets == 327 DPS.
With all turrets I'd lose 41 DPS versus a Beam Broadside, but opponents usually snuggle into my Aft anyway, so I'm normally only pumping out 262 DPS. Meaning I'd actually gain 65 DPS (in most cases) using all turrets.

Am I reading that right?

That seems to be accurate. Someone else already noted about the ranges, so it depends if people are getting close to you or not. The closer the better. If people are often staying far away from you then it's probably better to just stick with the beams.

Another thing to consider is that you can use CRF with the turrets to increase their damage further, provided you have a Lt. Tactical slot available. I suppose that could be an unwelcome surprise to someone who came up behind you. There's also CSV if you want to do area damage with turrets.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 94
11-19-2010, 07:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nagorak View Post
How much power are you running to weapons, around 50ish? The combination of 2 turrets and 2 beams could boost damage, or it could possibly decrease it. The reason being that when you're not broadside only 2 of your weapons are firing, so you only are draining 10 power. Depending on how you equipped the turrets, you could have a situation where you always have 3 weapons firing (if you put one in the fore and one aft). So would that do more damage than 2 beams, it's hard to say.

Just as a rule of thumb, you can figure the damage reduction by taking the energy drain and multiplying it by your total damage output. This will be a more pessimistic result than you'll actually experience in the game, due to the cool down mechanics, etc.

I'd actually recommend putting one dual beam in the front, since that will only fire in the frontal arc. Then you can equip a second beam in front, and two in the rear. That way you'll never fire more than 3 weapons (20 power drain). By just using the quick calculation 4 beams firing would be -30 power, so at 50 power all four would fire at 20, for 80 damage. Whereas with only 3, you'd have -20, so all three would fire at 30 power for 90 damage. Meanwhile your frontal arc damage will be better too. Now, like I said, this is more pessimistic than the actual result you'll see in the game, so it's possible that the four beams would still do more damage in broadside than the three, but it won't be a big difference.

Another possibility would be putting 3 beams in the rear and 2 dual beams in the front, that way you keep the decent broadside damage and add a solid punch to the front without having to worry about too much energy drain in any situation. The trick is to decouple your different firing arcs from one another, so you never have too many weapons firing at once. Using turrets has the opposite effect, but I really don't have enough information to really estimate the result of your question.

In terms of the range drop off, at 1 km all of the weapons do full power. Cannon damage (which includes turrets) starts to drop off after 2 km, while beams drop off after 1 km, but beams drop off slower. So, the further away you are, the less damage cannons do compared to beams. That is another thing to take into account. Like I said, there are too many variables.

You can see the damage output of beams vs cannons at different ranges here.
My thought has often been that with a turret up front and at the rear and a single beam up front and at the rear you could, potentially, always have at least 3 weapons on target along with lower power drain when firing all 4. At least that's been my hope.

I often make a figure 8 pattern when flying, putting each shield facing to my opponent at least once with in a short mater of time on changing this pattern up to exploit a weakness or evade a threat and often with in 5 km of my target. For this reason, dual beams have often been less useful as they don't get fired nearly as much as my other weapons.

Once again, though thanks for all of your hard work.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 95
11-19-2010, 07:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by evilhippo View Post
I thought EPS consoles did not have any effect on weapon power regeneration any more...
They don't anymore on Holodeck, and they weren't supposed to for quite a number of months. But there was a bug with turrets that made it so they still did, which has now been fixed. It hasn't been fixed on Tribble yet, I assume because it hasn't been patched since the fix was made. The problem is all of my testing is now done on Tribble, so I don't have to sacrifice the build of my main character in order to keep my skills the same for future tests.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 96
11-19-2010, 11:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by evilhippo View Post
I thought EPS consoles did not have any effect on weapon power regeneration any more...
Turrent Energy recovery is still bugged on Tribble (but now fixed on Holodeck). I don't quite know why this means that EPS Flow works. Maybe there is code in it that supresses normal recovery for the firing cycle, but the energy drain is longer then the firing cycle, and so the normal EPS flow applies for the remainder.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 97
11-19-2010, 11:49 PM
EPS flow makes it so your power regenerates faster. Before they changed it so that you got all of your weapon power back, you needed to equip EPS flow to counter the drain (otherwise you slowly drained out). With the change they added sort of a "hack" that made it so after the weapon went into cool down you got +10 energy back. But with the bug you got the energy back too late and as a result still suffered part of the effect of energy drain.

The side effect of this is that you can still "fall back" on the old regen system and use EPS flow regulators to counter the drain. What happens is you recover the energy naturally and when the +energy would occur you're already full, so nothing gets added.

Essentially enough EPS flow always countered energy drain, and can still do so in cases where the weapons aren't working right. But it's all a moot point now because all the weapons are fixed and shouldn't benefit from EPS flow regulators anymore.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 98
11-19-2010, 11:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nagorak View Post
But it's all a moot point now because all the weapons are fixed and shouldn't benefit from EPS flow regulators anymore.
Cannon Scatter Volley in a target rich environment still drains me down to zero rather quickly
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 99
11-20-2010, 01:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dukedom View Post
Cannon Scatter Volley in a target rich environment still drains me down to zero rather quickly
Interesting. Does the power drain you for every target the cannons fire at? I hadn't thought of that side effect.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 100
11-20-2010, 02:18 AM
nah, it's more sth with the increased rate of fire. if i scatter volley a single target there is a slight drop in power, like as if you had an additional cannon in your setup. with multiple targets it gets worse especially if they are not in the inmediate vicinity of each other but spread out in your firing arc.
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