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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Tier-5 Federation cruisers (and the Negh'var Battle Cruiser) inertia is out of whack as a result of all turn-rate related changes which have occurred recently (the boost to tier-5 cruiser turn rates, the addition of skills that modify turn rates, the inclusion of bonuses from prior cruiser captain skills, the turn-rate switch from aux to engine power).

These ships are now badly sliding whenever they attempt to make a turn on all forms of space maps. It is completely non-Star Trek, in my opinion looks ridiculous, and on top of this is causing a defense stat hit when turning. No other vessels in the game have this drifting problem.

Bug ticket # 890221
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
06-14-2010, 09:33 AM
It's not a bug, it's a consequence of the high inertia values for those ships.

As for 'non Star Trek', drift is one of the only things in STO that actually approaches realism in space. You don't just change directions in the absence of friction, you keep going in the original direction until a force changes that behavior. I don't care if you've never seen this happen in a TV show.

I actually like it and take advantage of drift on a regular basis. It's not a bug, and filing it as such wastes your time and Cryptic's.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
06-14-2010, 10:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildfyre010 View Post
It's not a bug, it's a consequence of the high inertia values for those ships.

As for 'non Star Trek', drift is one of the only things in STO that actually approaches realism in space. You don't just change directions in the absence of friction, you keep going in the original direction until a force changes that behavior. I don't care if you've never seen this happen in a TV show.

I actually like it and take advantage of drift on a regular basis. It's not a bug, and filing it as such wastes your time and Cryptic's.
Actually, it's a problem with the lower inertia values for those ships, not high ones.

Every vessel that works properly (and they all do, other than the two ships I mentioned above) has an inertial value that is roughly double the ships turn rate. Every single one, even the tier 1-4 cruisers. But with all the turn-rate modifiers that have happened over the patches in the past few months, that is no longer the case for tier-5 cruisers. The turn-rate modifier for that particular ship type is approaching, and even matching, the inertial value. That's why they slide. Even the much more massive tier-4 cruisers don't slide because the ratio of their turn rating to inertia value is correct.

This is Star Trek. And technology in Star Trek prevents the type of realism you're looking for in space combat. Perhaps Star Trek isn't the genre for you. If you're looking for a more realistic space simulation you might want to try out the old space game, "Elite".

Just as you don't care if it's never been seen on the TV show, I don't care how real science applies in a game based in the Star Trek universe. And in a Star Trek setting, this behavior is a bug. You'll notice I filed the report here in Star Trek Online, and not in an email to NASA.

You seem to be concerned about how other people spend their time. Instead of arguing with me about what is or isn't a bug, might I suggest that you spend some of yours writing the producers of the Star Trek series and petitioning that they change the behavior of space flight on their show to be more in line with your vision?

Aesthetics may be objective, but when it comes down to it this is not how ships behave in Star Trek, especially Federation cruisers. Cryptic has their artists spending valuable time reworking starship art just so all the humps, window and escape pods placement, saucer thickness, and a ton of other minor details conform to their TV counterparts.. just to please the portion of the community that cares about such things. Well, I think fixing a cruiser's inertia so it no longer slips and slides around the map like Star Trek : Tokyo Drift is both an easier fix and a much more noticeable one aesthetically. The most beautiful, artistically rendered ship in the world looks ridiculous the moment is starts sliding around like it's turning on ice. Looking to improve the aesthetics of these ships? Fix that.

Why don't we just let the reports get filed and have Cryptic determine where their time is best spent.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
06-14-2010, 10:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildfyre010 View Post
You don't just change directions in the absence of friction, you keep going in the original direction until a force changes that behavior.
Then all vessels regardless of faction/class should have the same mechanic.

I'd argue that the "Tokyo Drift" on the T5 cruisers is way overdone and totally unneccesary. They already have the least amount of manueverability in the game. This mechanic serves no purpose IMO other than to be annoying. Ships their size would have appropriately sized/powered RCS thrusters and the like to counter that drift, just as smaller vessels do.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
06-14-2010, 10:47 AM
actually, drifting is the only way to turn a cruiser on a higher level than its turnrate normally allows.

try to work with your speed setting and you'll recognize, that "drifting" is pretty cool.
related to ST its normal you wont see any "drifting" ships, cause most of the Next Gen fights for example were only "face to face" fights. (you know, both ships standing rather still just firing their weapons^^)
in ds9, where we can see spacefights more often, we need to agree, that the ship fighting is the defiant in 80% of the fights. in larger fleets cruisers only fly in one direction: forward ^^ so we can#t really get an impression on what it would be in ST.

as it comes to physics, its pretty right that cruisers drift, cause the aux systems for stabilizing a ships direction have to compensate much more amount of mass on a cruiser than on a defiant.

the reason why the carrier of the klingons is differen is, because he has a ugly low baseturnrate, i don't think thats what you want.

so my opinion is: get USED to drifting, use it for your benefits. you can really do nice turns with it (for a cruiser), when used proper, more than a lame kli carrier could ever do ^^

the only thing, that i want to be changed is the "okay i deactivated the engines AND put in the backwards turn, WHEN the **** will i stop moving " thing. so making a bigger negativ turn of the reverse would help a bit.

as far as the defense value is concerned, the cruiser is NOT intended to fly @ max speed max engines setting, just for "evasives", thats part of the escorts, you can have really much heals and resis, THATS you way to survive.

escorts way is evading hits, and sciecne way is disabling enemys abilities to cause dmg ^^

donno if you ever played wow but: youre trying to make a rogue out of a warrior (or better paladin ^^)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
06-14-2010, 11:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelOfDespair
as it comes to physics, its pretty right that cruisers drift, cause the aux systems for stabilizing a ships direction have to compensate much more amount of mass on a cruiser than on a defiant.
As per the information available on the website, cruisers have "larger warp cores"... meaning they are able to generate more power. As physically larger ships, they also have larger RCS thrusters to compensate for their larger mass. They didn't stick dinky little Defiant sized thrusters onto the Galaxy Class - it doesn't make sense that they would.

Watch "Nemesis" and the TNG Episode "Booby Trap" again. Larger ships aren't the lumbering, skidding/sliding hulks they are made out to be in STO.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
06-14-2010, 12:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelOfDespair
actually, drifting is the only way to turn a cruiser on a higher level than its turnrate normally allows.
No, drifting only gives the illusion of turning faster in this game. You're still limited to your turn rate value. If your turn rate is 10 degrees a second it will take you 18 seconds to reverse the facing of your ship, regardless of whether you're drifting or not. The only meaningful difference is that a sliding ship isn't actually moving in the new direction it's pointing towards. Kind of defeats part of the point of a turn, no?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelOfDespair
try to work with your speed setting and you'll recognize, that "drifting" is pretty cool.
I see nothing cool about the behavior, nor the fact that drifting can cause a substantial hit to your defense value, causing you to take more damage in a fight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelOfDespair
donno if you ever played wow but: youre trying to make a rogue out of a warrior (or better paladin ^^)
Actually, I question whether you ever played a tanking role in WoW, as damage avoidance is a big part of tanking for all of the tanking classes in that game. Most tanks strove to obtain at least a 60% avoidance rate, if not more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelOfDespair
the only thing, that i want to be changed is the "okay i deactivated the engines AND put in the backwards turn, WHEN the **** will i stop moving " thing.
News flash: that's the poor inertia value at work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelOfDespair
related to ST its normal you wont see any "drifting" ships, cause most of the Next Gen fights for example were only "face to face" fights. (you know, both ships standing rather still just firing their weapons^^)
in ds9, where we can see spacefights more often, we need to agree, that the ship fighting is the defiant in 80% of the fights. in larger fleets cruisers only fly in one direction: forward ^^ so we can#t really get an impression on what it would be in ST.
Sure we can. Keep an eye on the scenes in the first link below at about 1:30 and then again about halfway through at 2:20, and 2:40 through 3:30. That sovereign class cruiser sure doesn't look like it's slipping around on ice to me.

Tier-5 cruiser motion here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xv-Y_PKuXqo

Motorsport drifting here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUurALr_Ckk
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
06-14-2010, 12:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Combadge
Tier-5 cruiser motion here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xv-Y_PKuXqo
Should also note that the Scimitar - which is a much larger ship than the Enterprise E - doesn't have the Tokyo Drift either.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
06-15-2010, 02:17 PM
I agree with the original poster... the drift is stupid and needs to be fixed. Some people may think its "kewlz" to be slipsliding all over the map or whatever, but its way out of line. Starships have Inertia dampeners for a reason.. some people claim the slide is "realistic", but with the level of technology available to our ships.. Inertia is a force that has been overcome. Tier5 Cruisers and Battle Cruisers should not be drifting and sliding out of a fight because of inertia.

I really wonder if some of the people who don't find this annoying or silly actually play tier5 cruisers.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
06-15-2010, 10:00 PM
Definitely strange [ and a needs to be looked at ]. I actually got my Vorcha turned 180 degrees fast enough I was flying in reverse while firing on a target I'd passed.
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