Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 Starship Refits Proposal
06-14-2010, 02:38 PM
I know this subject has been tossed around alot. It seems to me there are 2 resolute factions on either side of this debate.

1 side wants to see Refits become available so they can continue to use the ships they love into End Game. (I count myself among this group.)

1 side doesn't want to see Refits because they feel the lower Tier ships shouldn't be able to hang in a fight with higher Tier ships.

First and foremost, the idea of Refits is both supported in canon, and was shown to take the usefulness of a ship to the very extreme.

First Example: USS Lakota, Excelsior Class (DS9, "Paradise Lost") - The Lakota was refitted to the extent that it was able to hang in a fire fight with Starfleet's most advanced Tactical Warship, the USS Defiant.

Second Example: USS Enterprise, Constitution Class Refit (Star Trek: TMP) - The Enterprise, first commissioned in 2245, maintained flag ship status within Starfleet and the ship remained in active service until it's destruction in 2285. The ship was one of Starfleet's most powerful vessels of the 2270's and 2280's, even though it was originally commissioned 30 years prior.


Now back to the debate.

The idea has been floated by some to offer Refit status on lower Tier ships, but making the Refit ships slightly reduced in power and strength over their modern Tier 5 counterparts. I agree with this idea, and decided to flesh it out a bit. So for this proposal, I will use the Cruiser line as my basis for comparison:

Tier 2 Cruiser

19500 Hull (Base)
400 Crew
Turn Rate: 8 deg./Sec. (Base)
Weapons: 2 Fore, 2 Aft
Consoles: 2 Engineering, 1 Science, 1 Tactical
Bridge Officers: 2 Engineering (Lt. & Ensign), 1 Science (Ensign), 1 Tactical (Ensign)

Tier 5 Assault Crusier

39000 Hull (Base)
800 Crew
Turn Rate: 6 deg./Sec. (Base)
Weapons: 4 Fore, 4 Aft
Consoles: 4 Engineering, 2 Science, 2 Tactical
Bridge Officers: 2 Engineering (Cmdr. & Lt. Cmdr.), 1 Science (Lt.), 2 Tactical (Lt. & Ensign)

So, based on the values shown above, the specs I came up for a Refit Tier 2 for use at Tier 5 would be as follows:

Tier 5 Refit Cruiser

31200 Hull (Base) - Approx. 80% of Tier 5 AC, but higher than Tier 4 Exploration Cruiser
650 Crew - Approx. 80% of Tier 5 AC
Turn Rate: 7 deg./Sec. (Base) - Faster than Tier 5 (due to Ship Size) but Slower than Tier 2.
Weapons: 3 Fore, 3 Aft - Lower Weapon Slots as Trade Off for Faster Turn Speed
Consoles: 3 Engineering, 2 Science, 2 Tactical - Trade Off for the Smaller Hull Value based on ship size.
Bridge Officers: Remains the same as a T5 Assault Cruiser

The major basis of my thinking on this Refit ship is that if you really like a Lower Tier ship, you should get to fly it and still have it be viable in T5 content, you will simply have to display a little bit more skill when flying it, as your weapons load out is smaller, you have 1 less console in 2 categories and you have less crew to keep the ship running. Also, for those that may want to Refit a ship higher than Tier 2, you still pick up some gains, however the gains aren't as high.

I will note that 1 annomaly exists right away. The Galaxy class, which has a crew of 1000. If you refitted a Galaxy, you'd take a higher penalty. So, it might mean that Crew numbers would have to be on a sliding scale.

It is my opinion that using a setup such as this, would allow for a compromise between the two factions in this debate, to allow Refits to occur, without upsetting the Tier 5 purists.

I welcome any feedback on this idea.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2 Refits
06-14-2010, 03:04 PM
STO is just slow to learn. A lot of player want a refit option to tier up there ships. Canon is clear that a refit can look the same. You can even have two class ship that look the same. Appearance is meaningless. Only abut 50% of the time is there physical change in a appearance of the ship. It is very possible to see what amount to a T5 Star Trek TOS ship.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
06-14-2010, 03:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleeves
STO is just slow to learn. A lot of player want a refit option to tier up there ships. Canon is clear that a refit can look the same. You can even have two class ship that look the same. Appearance is meaningless. Only abut 50% of the time is there physical change in a appearance of the ship. It is very possible to see what amount to a T5 Star Trek TOS ship.
I agree.

I used the T2 Cruiser as my baseline for the Example because I really love my kitbashed Excalibur / Vesper ship, and would like to keep using it right up to Tier 5. I would be more than willing to take the penalty (as laid out in my Tier 5 Refit Cruiser example) just to be allowed to use my Tier 2 ship. Yes, I might have to work a little harder with it, but it would be worth it because I'd be happily flying a ship I love, instead of something I just like (such as the Sovereign) or something I hate (such as the Galaxy).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
06-14-2010, 03:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptMattSchwab
I agree.

I used the T2 Cruiser as my baseline for the Example because I really love my kitbashed Excalibur / Vesper ship, and would like to keep using it right up to Tier 5. I would be more than willing to take the penalty (as laid out in my Tier 5 Refit Cruiser example) just to be allowed to use my Tier 2 ship. Yes, I might have to work a little harder with it, but it would be worth it because I'd be happily flying a ship I love, instead of something I just like (such as the Sovereign) or something I hate (such as the Galaxy).
Wow, that's weird, I hate the excalibur class and/or vesper class, and love the Galaxy class. Sovereign is ok.

Exact opposites......Hmmmm

Vesper reminds me to much of the Excelsior class, which I also hate.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
06-14-2010, 03:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by captiva View Post
Wow, that's weird, I hate the excalibur class and/or vesper class, and love the Galaxy class. Sovereign is ok.

Exact opposites......Hmmmm

Vesper reminds me to much of the Excelsior class, which I also hate.
To each their own

The idea though is that you'd be able to use any Tier Ship you want to, based on your personal preference, at Tier 5, for the small penalty applied for being a Refit rather than a True Tier 5.

If anything, you'd see a much wider variety of ships at the upper levels, which would be a nice change of scenery.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
06-14-2010, 05:14 PM
I Love the idea of being able to use an Intrepid at T5 content and not the T5 Science Ship... and the way you have displayed the Refit stats look fair and I know a lot of my fleet mates would be willing to drop some stats to get the lower Tier ships at T5 content
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
06-14-2010, 05:26 PM
I think there should be a limit to how many tiers up a ship can go, but would be open to the possibility of implementing groups of ships, ground BO-style, as an alternative to more extreme upgrades. If you refuse to command anything other than a light cruiser, fine, get another one following you around for tier 3. Etc. It'd be somewhat more complicated, but as PC progression extends into increasingly more ludicrous levels of Admiral I think such a system is going to be necessary at some point.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
06-14-2010, 05:36 PM
Matt, can't say your idea isn't well thought out and presented just as well. (Very easy on my old eyes, thanks.) However, you know where I stand. We're together in wanting to keep the ships that we like. But far apart on how that should work. I don't want any penalties. I'd like my ship to be just as capable as the one I would have gotten for free when I made rank.

It seems to me that the main problem is with a few people that don't want to see a lower tier ship preform as well as their big ones. Why that would bother them I don't know. It must step on their epeens or something. They'll whine about how it would break their immersion. Where as other things like instant resurrection doesn't. They'll claim that it would be impossible. Even though everything in this game is impossible.

The simplest and easiest way to deal with these few. Would be to quote William Shatner and say "Get a life!" But that wouldn't be how things are done in Star Trek. In the Star Trek universe. If you want to justify the existence something that totally goes against the rules of science and laws of nature. You make up some kind of techno babble mumbo jumbo excuse for it to be so.

Okay, so here's the techno babble mumbo jumbo excuse for all those who don't get that this is just a game.

Its simple, those tier two ships that act like tier five ships aren't really tier two ships. They're tier five ships in disguise. They have holo-emitters and sensor masking devices that makes them look like lower tier ships. The system works much like a cloaking device. But instead of rendering them invisible. They make the ships appear to be something that they are not. They're like the Q ships of the first and second world wars. The idea is to fool an enemy in to thinking that they are an easy mark. When in reality they are not. This would cause confusion amongst the enemy ranks and be of great strategic value.

So there ya go. That's how its done.

For those who think that isn't a good enough reason. You're wrong. Saying its all done by magic would be just as good a reason. Because none of this is real.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
06-14-2010, 09:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trekkie1961
Matt, can't say your idea isn't well thought out and presented just as well. (Very easy on my old eyes, thanks.) However, you know where I stand. We're together in wanting to keep the ships that we like. But far apart on how that should work. I don't want any penalties. I'd like my ship to be just as capable as the one I would have gotten for free when I made rank.

It seems to me that the main problem is with a few people that don't want to see a lower tier ship preform as well as their big ones. Why that would bother them I don't know. It must step on their epeens or something. They'll whine about how it would break their immersion. Where as other things like instant resurrection doesn't. They'll claim that it would be impossible. Even though everything in this game is impossible.

The simplest and easiest way to deal with these few. Would be to quote William Shatner and say "Get a life!" But that wouldn't be how things are done in Star Trek. In the Star Trek universe. If you want to justify the existence something that totally goes against the rules of science and laws of nature. You make up some kind of techno babble mumbo jumbo excuse for it to be so.

Okay, so here's the techno babble mumbo jumbo excuse for all those who don't get that this is just a game.

Its simple, those tier two ships that act like tier five ships aren't really tier two ships. They're tier five ships in disguise. They have holo-emitters and sensor masking devices that makes them look like lower tier ships. The system works much like a cloaking device. But instead of rendering them invisible. They make the ships appear to be something that they are not. They're like the Q ships of the first and second world wars. The idea is to fool an enemy in to thinking that they are an easy mark. When in reality they are not. This would cause confusion amongst the enemy ranks and be of great strategic value.

So there ya go. That's how its done.

For those who think that isn't a good enough reason. You're wrong. Saying its all done by magic would be just as good a reason. Because none of this is real.
I understand your position, and my personal opinion is I would like to have it without a penalty as well.

However, I also understand that if we ever want to see it in game, we need to get the objectors on board with a plan, so we can get the support we need to get Cryptic to put Refits into the game.

Without the Objectors, we won't get enough support for the idea for Cryptic to consider it a viable option.

So, I guess it boils down to this:

Would you rather have Refits in the game, with the penalty, if the Objectors can get behind it

- or -

Would you rather it not happen at all.

I would rather see the Refits become reality, even if it means a minor penalty.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
06-14-2010, 09:48 PM
No, I'd much rather see upgrades be something different and special compared to just a different skin of the same ship configuration. Special abilities, commanding multiples of them at once, something other than just climbing into the same cookie cutter.

Another thing that worries me is that, if Cryptic adopts that position, we'll never see ANY new ship skins except from the C-store. Because we can always just upgrade our old ones, right?
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