Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
06-15-2010, 01:06 PM
Interesting post there. I could agree that I'd like more comptent NPC in my PvE that actually make me think instead of blowing up stuff so easilly. I can get that sort of with the addition of the difficulity slider. it certainly provided for longer fights when I was finishing up Captain and RA. I'm sort of a casual player and that's alright by me. I would enjoy a little more strategy in the space fighting. I think that might help a little bit in the sheer amount of lack of knowing how to counter things in PvP. I tried PvP recently and felt like I should just fly around in my ship and wait for hte other team to win cause my groups sucked. I did find a couple gem pugs that really worked.

I do feel it's a logical conclusion that elements that were balanced against pre 1.2 system may seem out of balance with the changes brought about. What I'd like to honestly see is more people flying the various ships and stop seeing everyone only flying cruisers in PvP because it's the flavor of the month. If the game is properly balanced, then there would not be any flavor of hte months.

For the record, I'm a tactical captain flying an escort ship fed side and the burst damage changes that came with 1.2 don't really bother me too much. It just means I have to adjust my playstyle which I'm trying to do. but it doesn't help when most PvP matchs I get into are nothing but cruisers and i'm one of two escorts if not the only escort. at least that's what I've seen
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12 Just so you know, I'm a jerk.
06-15-2010, 01:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren_Kitlor
I actually responded. His experiences regarding PvP match lengths seem far removed from the norm (his contention is actually regarding PvP playtimes and challenges being too long for pre-mades and next to no challenge)
Apparently I rant. That must be why I'm so hard to understand. I mean, I try and explain things in simplistic terms that even a NASCAR fan on his second 12-pack of the morning can understand, while simultaneously talking about complex astrophysics and non-positivist approaches to psychology. My family and friends tell me that this is a very useful skill, for them, and that it's one of the few things about my personality that make up for my raging egotism. That said, most people are well below my capacity for identifying patterns and understanding how they integrate with one another. I didn't believe I was smarter than other people for most of my life, and the disillusionment was hard to go through. Now when I explain things to people in a way they can understand, it seems to make them feel stupid. I'd rather make people feel stupid than make people feel empowered by ignorance, because in that second option I just have to make them feel really really stupid later on when I'm cleaning up whatever mess they made. In all I'm saving myself time and effort, which incidentally saves face for the stupid people I talk down to. I'd really like to be more sensitive, but it simply is not an effective survival strategy, and in refusing to compromise on being nice I have repeatedly lost everything I cared about. Now that I've made that compromise, I find it difficult to care what other people think unless it has utility to me. In the self-interested agenda to live in a world that's not completely populated by people I can't stand talking to, I have become a jerk, and I'm okay with that. If you've got a problem with me being a jerk, go fix the world and I'll happily change to adapt to an enlightened peaceful utopia run by incorruptible benevolent philosopher kings, where healthy food is free and disease has been eradicated. Until then, bite me, I'm NOT going to talk down to people's level AND kiss their unwiped behinds. I also am not going to find very many people that can talk to me at my level, so on those RARE occasions I am always certain to make a long term friend.

Now, of course you think I'm being egotistical here, reader (nobody in particular). You are identifying yourself as someone who must be spoken down to, someone who cannot reach up to my level in the first place. You are identifying, by calling me an egotist, that you are the person I am talking about when I describe a conversation about black hole physics being interrupted by your burp and fart jokes. I have not been respected by you, and I have no reason to respect you in return. You may not know that your existence offends me, but that doesn't mean I have to tailor my messages specifically to what you want me to have said. You are the egotistical one for not recognizing that people are only extra-ordinary if they are NOT ordinary. You are the one who thinks the whole world should bend around what you want, including what I want, and YOU are the one demanding that others change their behavior to meet your expectations. You are, in my opinion, a witless fascist, the worst kind of tyrant.

Alright, so, now that I have explained why I don't waste walls of text touching on every pointless talking point issue that every forum troll's cousin has already seen five hundred thousand times because you get every post that doesn't say exactly what you want it to say... closed... on to clarify my point that was so thoughtfully mis-paraphrased in the quote above.

PvP battles between teams of practiced and well-organized players last FOREVER. However, when it's one skilled team versus one batch of braindead noobs, it STILL takes a very very long time. I haven't seen a match go less than half an hour since 1.2 launched, and the most common match length I've seen is about one hour. Perhaps flags flip too slowly, perhaps 15 is too many kill points to gain from people who only have one strategy on their ship, that being "run away." Perhaps it's just that healing skills still outpace DPS by about 200%. I don't know, and after all the testing I did and organizing the fleet to go help on tribble on a whim for an entire week... not only does my fleet not want me to ask them for anything ever again, they are all as bored as I am of never-ending matches. There's no sense of accomplishment from fighting for an hour over a 20% boost to 300 bridge officer training points. Since you can't win a fight in a reasonable amount of time anymore, I have fleetmates who are only able to play one partial match per day now, and it takes them three to six days to get a PvP daily completed because they just can't devote 3 hours a night every night for a month and a half or longer to getting one set of purple gear. The ones who level their toons entirely in PvP because they find PvE mind-numbingly boring are finding themselves unable to level at all, because the Qs are mostly empty below T5, and on the rare occasions that a match does pop, half the people don't enter, and the other half fly out to the warp barrier and leave.

The community is what's broken, and it will take some thoughtful social engineering to fix that dynamic. Luckily, this is an MMO, and social engineering is the point in the first place.

BTW, I'm a jerk.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
06-15-2010, 01:50 PM
I didn't call you a jerk nor did I say you were ranting.

I offered a link to a thread over on the Tribble forum regarding a semi-decent improvement to weapons power that would decrease match times (without imbalancing things). Do you still post there much? I know you were very vocal (and thankfully so) during the 1.2 power change process (which spanned weeks).

How do you suggest we socially engineer the game, if you'd prefer that over a tweak to reduce match times?

I think there's a partial answer coming during or after season 2. Leaderboards are being designed to show the tracked myriad of stats in the game currently.

This comes from Zinc's statements:
Quote:
Originally Posted by darren_kitlor View Post
1 vs. 1 is something pretty straight forward that could be added in quite readily but what we find internally is that team is much more fun. You end up having a lot more "tipping point and all-of-a-sudden you lose" in 1 on 1. As the balance of the game changes, that may change as well.

As far as tournaments go (and this will not make it into Season Two), is to get Leaderboards up. To get your daily, weekly, and monthly PvP Leaderboards up there: the number of kills, the number of matches won versus the number of matches competed in, and just a number of things. I think it's not exactly a tournament but it ends up having kind of the same mechanics. Definitely get PvP Leaderboards in the game initially and then expanding that further.

PvE content as well, you know? How many episodes did you do, how fast did you do them, how fast did you get through the tutorial: I think there's a lot of replayability and a lot of cool stuff we can do with Leaderboards, in general.

So look for those kinds of additions shortly after Season 2.
That should help with PUG matches (hopefully).

As for premade matches, I doubt social engineering will fix your boredom there. PvPers operating on that level adjust to the exploits quickly (or strengths/weaknesses) of each patch and compensate. It will always be longer than PUG matches.

I doubt such behavior on the high-end could be changed. However, the mechanics could be (just slightly). I like the idea of more powers available more often. If base (or sustained) damage were increased slightly (and unaffected by criticals), it'd go a long ways to decreasing match times without having the "tipping point, insta-win" problems associated with too much power.

Check out the thread I linked to in my first response.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
06-15-2010, 02:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren_Kitlor
I didn't call you a jerk nor did I say you were ranting.
Oh I wasn't addressing you with that rant, or anyone in particular. I was just carefully and completely explaining my thought processes without getting into too much personal detail, about all the stuff I now don't have to see or respond to in this thread because I've already addressed all of it in one fell swipe. Your quote was attached because it was at that point the only relevant one yet posted.)



Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren_Kitlor
How do you suggest we socially engineer the game, if you'd prefer that over a tweak to reduce match times?

I think there's a partial answer coming during or after season 2. Leaderboards are being designed to show the tracked myriad of stats in the game currently.

That should help with PUG matches (hopefully).
Leaderboards will have an effect at the high end, but will just serve to make the low end feel left out and dejected, and amazed that anyone has the time to play the game enough to make it into the top 100. It's an excellent idea for several reasons, but it's not going to solve any of these problems.

I think minor tweaks to the match rules to accommodate the vastly increased longevity of anyone smart enough to bring even a single healing skill into a PvP match. More skills will also help, yes...

Primarily, though, people are lulled into a happy comfortable womb-like state by the dumber-than-a-tree-slug AI in PvE, which does not at all prepare people for a PvP experience... and can apparently be so easy that a typical player makes it to RA5 without ever realizing that bridge officers can be commissioned and given skills and used in combat. Since that's... let's face it, that's the entire game mechanic... the primary point of technical expression (the ability to design and fill a team role for yourself) and the source of the necessity for teamwork... it needs to be important for everyone, not just the "hardcore pvp" groups. I'm not saying you should make the AI so hard you can't solo a klingon ship in space... but if more ships than the dreadnaughts were to use a skill now and then and maybe appear in smaller numbers as a result, I think a lot of people would feel a great deal more satisfied with having beat a meaningful opponent. There would be conversations about how to complete a mission effectively, maybe you'd have to team up for the harder ones sometimes. All missions are optional already, sliding the existing content into a more "story-like" feel instead of the "I walk naked into the abyss and face the legions of hell" grind that it currently is, you would solve several problems all at once.

1.) People would be a LOT more familiar with their ships and systems and skills.
2.) People would feel a much greater sense of accomplishment from defeating enemies, and would complain less about the grind being too short (it's not, it's too darned long, screwing around for two or three weeks before you get your first LtC station on any ship is just LAME)
3.) People would become familiarized with what a team is for, what roles are, and how to find and keep teammates... long before their first PvP experience, which would greatly enrich the PvP community as well as turning a lot of die-hard 'PvP players are psycho' believers into PvPers themselves, and would also allow those people who only join PvP at all because they are bored and want a challenge... to safely whimper back to PvE with a new mission goal... get better. This would be as opposed to how things are now, where the community is rabidly divided into "carebears" and "pvp trolls" which we've seen in every MMO that has ever had PvP, and we will continue to see forever as long as MMOs exist because it's not about the MMOs, it's about human nature. A recent neuroscience experiment discovered that there are four kinds of human intelligence derived from the instinctual/emotional drives that most affect their lives. It was actually started off as a test of the mental differences between conservatives and liberals, when they discovered that conservatives are motivated almost entirely by fear, while liberals are motivated almost entirely by their own wild imaginations of personal gain. Politics aside, that's funny how a political science major accidented into a sociology major after doing one neuroscience research project.
4.) It would make missions memorable enough to actually talk about them with other people and wax nostalgic, which would potentially get them to buy more character slots from the C-store and go through and level again. Replayability would be optimal if the PvE had any AI to it at all. Nobody wants to mow the grass, everyone wants to defeat Darth Cheney.
5.) My favorite projected effect of giving the game some AI is that people who whine about imbalances would suddenly have to stop because they'd be too busy trying to teach their noob fleetmates how to complete simple missions, and this would in turn make them understand the arguments against the constantly swinging nerfbat, which would in turn (nice cascade here) dramatically improve the QUALITY of the feedback on these forums.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren_Kitlor
As for premade matches, I doubt social engineering will fix your boredom there. PvPers operating on that level adjust to the exploits quickly (or strengths/weaknesses) of each patch and compensate. It will always be longer than PUG matches.

Check out the thread I linked to in my first response.
I'm not worried about it being longer than a PUG match, I'm worried about it being longer than most people can physically sit in a chair at one time. PvP between premades is no longer about doing damage and using strategies, it's about staying in the match until the other team finally falls asleep at the keyboard. It's not as bad as some of the bug-identification changes that were made on tribble in the first few days of testing the 1.2 build a couple of weeks ago, but it's still clearly not in line, and knowing all the physics changes that were made over the last 4-5 patches, I honestly haven't got a clue yet as to what to do about that. If I did, I'd suggest it immediately. I'll go check out that link.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
06-15-2010, 02:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lysander_X View Post
I can already tell that this thread is goin' places.
Yeah...to the frequently visited town of nowherefast.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
06-15-2010, 02:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blenda
So, to summarise, you're not happy that your Raptor/Escort has lost some burst damage.
You just made yourself look really stupid. If you're not gonna read the post at least try to hide it a bit more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keldor
In short, it's too slow now, and there's several ways to speed it up, one of which would dramatically reduce the network hardware load on one side and redistribute that power to the other side by simply making NPCs smarter and less numerous with higher rewards.
This is all true.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
06-15-2010, 02:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by s32ndDamian View Post
Yeah...to the frequently visited town of nowherefast.
Is that anywhere near Shantytown?

Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
06-16-2010, 11:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blenda
So, to summarise, you're not happy that your Raptor/Escort has lost some burst damage.
Wrong. I'm not happy about PvE being the equivalent of killing a pond full of goldfish with a machine gun and grenades. I want the damn goldfish to be at least alligators.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
06-16-2010, 11:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keldor
Wrong. I'm not happy about PvE being the equivalent of killing a pond full of goldfish with a machine gun and grenades. I want the damn goldfish to be at least alligators.
first off..... you have 17 characters? ( I always check someone before I give advice )

also have you tried elite difficulty yet?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
06-16-2010, 11:33 PM
Wall of text hits you for 42044(100324) damage!!
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