Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 711
11-15-2010, 03:44 AM
New Error for a Klingon Ship this time....

Tier 0 and Tier 5 B'rel Bird-Of-Prey

The feather pattern should only be changable/colored on the underside of the wing.
The Top/Dorsal pattern on the wings should have the same "green" color as the rest of the base texture.

http://alexraptor.com/images/BoPwrong.jpg
http://alexraptor.com/images/BoPright.jpg

Which i guess also means that the BoP missing a feather pattern has been fixed. :p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 712
11-15-2010, 06:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexraptor View Post
New Error for a Klingon Ship this time....

Tier 0 and Tier 5 B'rel Bird-Of-Prey

The feather pattern should only be changable/colored on the underside of the wing.
The Top/Dorsal pattern on the wings should have the same "green" color as the rest of the base texture.

http://alexraptor.com/images/BoPwrong.jpg
http://alexraptor.com/images/BoPright.jpg

Which i guess also means that the BoP missing a feather pattern has been fixed. :p
Thats open to debate, and it will take you into precisely the same BoP circles as attempting to make any sense of the whole B'Rel vs K'Vort TNG vs DS9 etc etc BoP debates.

There's very little consistancy with nearly any aspect of the BoP, and even less that you can justify as being canon since canon contradicts itself so frequently.

The general fan consensus, however, is that the B'Rel class BoPs (the smaller versions) can have either green tops or red/brown tops, but always red/brown decals underneath, as where the K'Vorts are always green on both top/bottom and, unlike the B'Rels, usualy have at least 3 different shades of green mixed into the feather decal instead.

But as I say its all massively open to debate even despite how frequently we've seen bops with green on the tops of the wings.

As it stands, the KDF is far less strict on its colour schemes, which would explain why there have been so many different shades of green for BoPs, so it is best to keep it to player discretion as is the current case.

Frankly if anything is to be changed with the feather decals of the B'Rel's wing it is the fact that none of the current pattern schemes allow us to colour all of the decals properly.

The Soveriegn has a pattern that is made specificaly for that ship ( it even has default in brackets to highlight the fact that its made for that ship) and adds all of the correct black decals to the hull if you have it selected - thats what we need for the B'Rel.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 713
11-15-2010, 07:19 AM
I don't see how the feather pattern is open to debate at all.

Seeing as every single appearance of a BoP on screen only has red/brown feathers on the underside of the wings, and never the top.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 714
11-15-2010, 11:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexraptor View Post
I don't see how the feather pattern is open to debate at all.

Seeing as every single appearance of a BoP on screen only has red/brown feathers on the underside of the wings, and never the top.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vampiric_hoshi View Post
Thats open to debate, and it will take you into precisely the same BoP circles as attempting to make any sense of the whole B'Rel vs K'Vort TNG vs DS9 etc etc BoP debates.

There's very little consistancy with nearly any aspect of the BoP, and even less that you can justify as being canon since canon contradicts itself so frequently.

The general fan consensus, however, is that the B'Rel class BoPs (the smaller versions) can have either green tops or red/brown tops, but always red/brown decals underneath, as where the K'Vorts are always green on both top/bottom and, unlike the B'Rels, usualy have at least 3 different shades of green mixed into the feather decal instead.

But as I say its all massively open to debate even despite how frequently we've seen bops with green on the tops of the wings.

As it stands, the KDF is far less strict on its colour schemes, which would explain why there have been so many different shades of green for BoPs, so it is best to keep it to player discretion as is the current case.

Frankly if anything is to be changed with the feather decals of the B'Rel's wing it is the fact that none of the current pattern schemes allow us to colour all of the decals properly.

The Soveriegn has a pattern that is made specificaly for that ship ( it even has default in brackets to highlight the fact that its made for that ship) and adds all of the correct black decals to the hull if you have it selected - thats what we need for the B'Rel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexraptor View Post
New Error for a Klingon Ship this time....

Tier 0 and Tier 5 B'rel Bird-Of-Prey

The feather pattern should only be changable/colored on the underside of the wing.
The Top/Dorsal pattern on the wings should have the same "green" color as the rest of the base texture.

http://alexraptor.com/images/BoPwrong.jpg
http://alexraptor.com/images/BoPright.jpg

Which i guess also means that the BoP missing a feather pattern has been fixed. :p

I feel I lean more towards AlexRaptor's point of view, here, only because I've never seen a BoP with coloured dorsal feather patterns. Hoshi, do you have any film / episode shots of a BoP with coloured dorsal feather patterns?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 715
11-16-2010, 05:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelSilhouette View Post
I feel I lean more towards AlexRaptor's point of view, here, only because I've never seen a BoP with coloured dorsal feather patterns. Hoshi, do you have any film / episode shots of a BoP with coloured dorsal feather patterns?
No, but for a Bird of Prey the argument of "is it on screen" isn't going to get you very far because nearly every time a new FX shot for a Bird of Prey is created, something has changed - size, colour, colour of feather pattern, wing position, etc. Trying to pindown a class of Bird of Prey is virtualy impossible for the same reason.

Here's a long post explaining my standpoint, so please forgive my wall of text;

We don't have canon (on-screen) confirmation that any of the Birds of Prey shown in DS9, which will include all of the screencaps Alexraptor has shown above, is a B'Rel class. The only time in the entirety of Star Trek is any Bird of Prey confirmed on-screen as being B'Rel class are the BoPs in the TNG episode "Little Rascals" and those were quite clearly what TNG has otherwise confirmed as being K'Vort class - far bigger, and completly different colour schemes, to the Birds of Prey shown at any other point in Trek. The only time a Bird of Prey class is even mentioned to my knowledge in DS9 is a K'Vort class - and we only see the debris and an escape pod for it (which incidently confirms that klingon ships DO have escape pods).

People like Okuda and Steinback have attempted to address this in the Technical Manuals and the Encylopedia, but since they themselves have errors as well, that n itself is an entirely different debate.

In regards to what we have actually seen on-screen, we've had a dark green Bird of Prey, referred too as a "scout class", with the top wings painted all the same colour and the lower wings painted with red and brown in Star Trek 3. This Bird of Prey's size changes from around 110m in length in ST3 to around 60m in ST4 and the colour appears to have gotten lighter in the newer CG shots added to the remastered version of ST4. The original ST3 BoP then re-appears in both ST5 and then in ST6 as Chang's prototype - same colours, same size (110m).

We've also seen the same Bird of Prey from ST3, with more or less the same size and colours, as the IKS Pagh in TNG.

We've also seen both a K'Vort and B'Rel class in TNG, with sizes ranging from 310 to 650m, far larger than the Pagh, and painted in a much lighter green - these appear consistantly throughout the rest of TNG from around Season 3. These appear to have greeen on both the upper and lower wings with absolutely no red/brown decal.

ST Generations, which is confirmed as being a "D12 class", appears to have reverted back to the original colour schemes of ST3.

In DS9 we're back to seing two BoP's, one around 60m and more commonly one around 110m. The colours on these are again different - we have some which are the darker ST3 green, others that appear to be the lighter TNG green, and yet more that are the mid-range green from the ST4 CG shot. Likewise some have red/brown decals underneath, some are all green, some have 3 different shades of green on the top feathers, and some are all the same colour - but not of them have canon comfirmation of class.

Its probably important to note that DS9 also saw a complete colour change for all other Klingon ships with a more consistant green being used across the board.

Clearly there is very little consistancy on colours, size, or even class. If that doesn't already make the whole point open to debate, practicaly every soft canon (games, books etc) is even less consistant with "B'Rel" class BoP's often having painted decals on both top and bottom which is arugably to blame for many fans believing that they're painted this way in actual Trek.

Personaly I agree with Alex in that the top of the wings shouldn't have the red/brown colour scheme, but since we have so little solid evidence to say exactly what ship on-screen is a B'Rel and what isn't, I think its just simply better to leave it to the discretion of the Klingon Captain.

At the very least, two of the patterns could be made to act as the (Default) patterns like fed ships have, where one allows you to modify the lower and the other allows you to modify both. That would probably be the best compromise, but I somehow doubt that will ever see the light of day.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 716
11-16-2010, 07:18 AM
That is a very lenghty post that ultimatley has not point or bearing here whatsoever.

B'rel in STO is just another way of referring ot the Classic Bird Of Prey.

The fact remains that all canon appearances of Klingon "Bird Of Prey's" show the wing pattern to "always" have the same color as the main hull with subtle variations of shades, even though the Ventral pattern varies.

As such the Dorsal pattern on the B'rel in STO should be non-customizable.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 717
11-16-2010, 07:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexraptor View Post
That is a very lenghty post that ultimatley has not point or bearing here whatsoever.
It had several important points and has every baring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexraptor View Post
B'rel in STO is just another way of referring ot the Classic Bird Of Prey.
This being one of the most important points.

"B'Rel" IS NOT just another way of referring to the "Classic Bird of Prey". The "Classic Bird of Prey" is only known as "Scout Class" and the only other Bird of Prey similar to it that was named on-screen was the D12 Class in Generations.

"B'Rel" is a very specific class of Bird of Prey that is mentioned, on-screen, in the TNG episode "Little Rascals", and as above is NOT the "Classic BoP".

Referring to a B'Rel as the smaller Bird of Prey is soft canon - that means it is NOT confirmed on-screen, but is instead referred too in books or games. Again Canon itself actually points to the B'Rel being the TNG Bird of Prey, NOT the Classic Bird of Prey.

Soft canon quite frequently has the B'Rel class with painted red/brown feathers on the top - to the point where something like 8 or 9 out of 10 games have the top of the wings painted red/brown.

The fact that most, or all, of the BoP's seen on screen have green upper wings is not that reliable as evidence because of how un-reliable the rest of the aspects of the BoP are, and since we're talking about a very specific class of Bird of Prey, you'd first need to confirm which on-screen BoP is actually a B'Rel class - and once more because of the episode Little Rascals that is a difficult task.

So you've got two choices here:

You either go by hard canon, in which case the B'Rel has to be completly removed from the game, or we go by soft canon and the top of the wings CAN be painted red/brown.

Star Trek is rarely as simple as "canon says", and the Bird of Prey is arguably the most difficult canon topic because it is the most inconsistant of any ship in the entire franchise.

Additionaly, that top pattern decal can only be coloured by picking specific patterns and, like all other ships in STO, there are many pattern combinations that have non-canon coloured patterns on pretty much every single ship. Why should the B'Rel now be a special case?

[EDIT]:

Something else to keep in mind in regards to BoP wing pattern colours, one of the original Bird of Prey conceptual drawings had the red on the top: http://johneaves.files.wordpress.com...pg?w=665&h=521

This original concept has clearly been used by Cryptic to design both the Hegh'ta and several of the other unique classes shown in STO.

Since this drawing, the basis, has red on the wings - and therefore all designs based off it are likely intended by Cryptic to have red of the wings, then there is additional weight to the argument that the Bird of Prey colour scheme for older classes may have been updated again to match the current standard - with the current standard having colours on the top.

As I pointed out, the Klingons have already completly changed colour schemes of existing classes seemingly at will, so there's no reason why this could not have been done again by 2409
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 718
11-16-2010, 08:07 AM
Q'apla!

B'rel Refit has weapons strip array on aft left side just under the wing, but not on aft right side.

I don't care if the strips are there or not, but the lack of symmetry is wrong.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 719
11-16-2010, 11:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vampiric_hoshi View Post
Wall of Text
I do not see why you countine to press the issue, its quite clear the colors the B'rel should have.
The Studio model and the CGI models all have green dorsal feather patterns of every Bird of Prey ever created.

Its very obvious that what the devs call B'rel is representing "The" Bird of Prey of Star Trek.

Honestly if your making a hard canon ship then there is no other way to paint it than in studio model/CGI colors.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 720
11-16-2010, 11:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintAdalberto
Q'apla!

B'rel Refit has weapons strip array on aft left side just under the wing, but not on aft right side.

I don't care if the strips are there or not, but the lack of symmetry is wrong.
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