Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 281
07-14-2010, 05:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota2063 View Post
"Besides that Cryptic already stated that they aren't going to change the current ranks.I don't really see what all the complaining is all about, it's not like this has any real effect on the game.
sooo agreed said that back in beta and ppl wont give it up QQing i wont my commdore title or rank
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 282
07-14-2010, 06:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malffurion
sooo agreed said that back in beta and ppl wont give it up QQing i wont my commdore title or rank
Charaterizing our arguments as "crying" (however you choose to spell it) is a weak attack on US instead of our argument. Don't do it, it undermines your credibility.


Memory Alpha says Commodore isn't used, but it cannot cite any reference to the abolition of the rank. That's because there IS NOT ANY SUCH REFERENCE. At no time in any episode or film did they make it clear that Commodores were replaced with Rear Admirals.

A Commodore in the Canadian Navy is equal in rank to a Brigadier in the Canadian Army. In American terms, that's one star (ie. Rear Admiral Lower Half and Brigadier). Commodore is not a demotion.

Starfleet is not the US Navy, and so does not necessarily follow the pattern of ranks the Navy uses.
Starfleet has used the Commdore rank to represent the grade between Captain and Rear Admiral.
There is no reference to Starfleet removing the rank and replacing it with Lower Half.

Logically, they should have just gone with Commodore. It was there and we don't know that it was removed. Status Quo would be to use it.

Either way, I've suggested a compromise that suits all parties, and am infantilized by having my comments described as "crying?"

I've made my suggestion, but I have no intention of being a target for anyone's e-peen competition. Thus, I leave it at this: Just unlock both titles at the same time and let us use the one we prefer.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 283
07-14-2010, 06:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Charaterizing our arguments as "crying" (however you choose to spell it) is a weak attack on US instead of our argument. Don't do it, it undermines your credibility.


Memory Alpha says Commodore isn't used, but it cannot cite any reference to the abolition of the rank. That's because there IS NOT ANY SUCH REFERENCE. At no time in any episode or film did they make it clear that Commodores were replaced with Rear Admirals.

A Commodore in the Canadian Navy is equal in rank to a Brigadier in the Canadian Army. In American terms, that's one star (ie. Rear Admiral Lower Half and Brigadier). Commodore is not a demotion.

Starfleet is not the US Navy, and so does not necessarily follow the pattern of ranks the Navy uses.
Starfleet has used the Commdore rank to represent the grade between Captain and Rear Admiral.
There is no reference to Starfleet removing the rank and replacing it with Lower Half.

Logically, they should have just gone with Commodore. It was there and we don't know that it was removed. Status Quo would be to use it.

Either way, I've suggested a compromise that suits all parties, and am infantilized by having my comments described as "crying?"

I've made my suggestion, but I have no intention of being a target for anyone's e-peen competition. Thus, I leave it at this: Just unlock both titles at the same time and let us use the one we prefer.
one i dont care about the US navy or the Canadian Navy dont care what ranks they ues THE ARE NOT STARFLEET
and also There is no reference to them still uesing commdore is not rank will be addid to the game DEV has said it look it up on past Threads so move on ToS fanboy
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 284
07-14-2010, 07:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Charaterizing our arguments as "crying" (however you choose to spell it) is a weak attack on US instead of our argument. Don't do it, it undermines your credibility.


Memory Alpha says Commodore isn't used, but it cannot cite any reference to the abolition of the rank. That's because there IS NOT ANY SUCH REFERENCE. At no time in any episode or film did they make it clear that Commodores were replaced with Rear Admirals.

A Commodore in the Canadian Navy is equal in rank to a Brigadier in the Canadian Army. In American terms, that's one star (ie. Rear Admiral Lower Half and Brigadier). Commodore is not a demotion.

Starfleet is not the US Navy, and so does not necessarily follow the pattern of ranks the Navy uses.
Starfleet has used the Commdore rank to represent the grade between Captain and Rear Admiral.
There is no reference to Starfleet removing the rank and replacing it with Lower Half.

Logically, they should have just gone with Commodore. It was there and we don't know that it was removed. Status Quo would be to use it.

Either way, I've suggested a compromise that suits all parties, and am infantilized by having my comments described as "crying?"

I've made my suggestion, but I have no intention of being a target for anyone's e-peen competition. Thus, I leave it at this: Just unlock both titles at the same time and let us use the one we prefer.
So let me get this straight. Malffurion saying that people who keep "QQing" over the fact of the rank and title of commodore, is in fact an attack on the U.S. I'm sorry but your statement undermines any credibility you could have mustered. This topic is about a rank in the Star Trek Universe, where there is no longer any such thing as the U.S. U.S. and any other current world government was destroyed back in World War three (as stated in Star Trek: First Contact) After wards they formed a unified government, which later folding into the Federation of Planets.

Now on to the rest of your case. Yes, memory alpha did in fact cite where it got it's references. Most notably the episode in TNG, "The Enemy" is where it is first mentioned. Also you can go and find the list of ranks, Now, you can argue that Commodore hasn't been officially removed, but since Cryptic has decided to use Rear admiral lower half instead of commodore, They stated back in beta that they wouldn't be changing the ranks to add in commodore, what makes you think they will now. They have chosen a set from canon and gone with it. (Rear admiral lower half/ Rear admiral Upper half/ vice admiral/ Admiral/ and supposedly Fleet Admiral.)

Finally, if you are going to argue for commodore in your game use the Star trek universe, not our current military, because Star Fleet is an entirely different entity form current military organizations. Gene Roddenberry wanted an organization that was similar to but not a copy of military organizations presently formed, because the show takes place in the future and many things can change from here to then.

frankly, you should also be showing respect, especially if you are going to call people on it, and jumping to the conclusion of some one stating that people are crying over commodore rank an attack on the U.S. shows that you have gotten way too personal with this topic and are getting way to emotional over the topic. Peoples opinions of what is canon in Star Trek does not go against the U.S. in any way that I know of, as the government is not concerned with what is valid in an intellectual property they don't own.

Bottom line. Cryptic has chosen the fact that commodore is not apart of current canon ranks, and have stated that they won't change the the ranks for something like this since beta. I don't see why the big fuss is anyways. Especially since I haven't heard of people complaining over any other ranks.

And finally, commodore is suppose to be a rank between captain and admiral, so yea going from rear admiral to commodore would be a demotion, as commodore would have come directly after Admiral. But if you really want to be technical, commodore and rear admiral lower half is the same rank, just an updated name.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 285
07-14-2010, 08:11 PM
No, I'm saying that characterizing my comments as crying is a deliberate attempt to infantilize those comments (ie. make them seem somehow childish). In other words it's an attack on ME (and others whom he similarly attacks).


I know this isnt' about rank in he real world. I've said so several times.

People have argued that because the US Navy doesn't have Commodores (not quite true, it's just become a position instead of a rank), Starfleet wouldn't either.

I've said this is flawed reasoning, Starfleet is not the US Navy.

Memory Alpha cites a time when Geordi uses the WORD, it does not in any way indicate the status of the rank. In fact, if anything, it supports that the rank is still in use since Geordi is referring to it.

I have not disrespected anyone. I'm not sure why you would think that. I'm not the one trying to insult people and denigrate them with ad hominem comments and namecalling.

Cryptic may indeed have chosen not to include the rank, but that is the point of this thread. We are hoping to convince them to add it. It's really just a title, after all. It's not going to change anything except what people will call themselves.

You have the rank order wrong. It's Captain - Commodore (or Rear Admiral LH) - Rear Admiral (or Rear Admiral UH). Changing from Rear Admiral LH to Commodore changes nothing but the name, it is the same rank and therefore not a demotion. But then, I already said this, too.



Since you're saying the same things I've already repeatedly said, I can only assume you're trying to troll me. Thus, I will say no more.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 286
07-14-2010, 08:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota2063 View Post
So let me get this straight. Malffurion saying that people who keep "QQing" over the fact of the rank and title of commodore, is in fact an attack on the U.S.
No. Read it in context and without adding periods. "an attack on US" US = Me + others. It has the same meaning as "WE" however not able to used interchangeably unless you're Johnny Vegas.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 287
07-14-2010, 08:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota2063 View Post
So let me get this straight. Malffurion saying that people who keep "QQing" over the fact of the rank and title of commodore, is in fact an attack on the U.S. I'm sorry but your statement undermines any credibility you could have mustered.
Um...

He was using English's third person plural objective pronoun there, not the abbreviation for the United States.

Geesh.

edit: bah, ninja'd
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 288
07-14-2010, 08:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solardream View Post
Oh and for the record...Kirk skipped Commodore. That's right kiddies, Starfleet promoted Kirk PAST Commodore, because he was so damn famous, and from his abilities.

Evidence? Check out Kirk's stripes on his TMP uniform...and notice the single stripe above what would be a Commodores solid braid? What's that equal? REAR ADMIRAL. Plain rear admiral...no upper or lower. Commodore is the large single braid. http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/James_T._Kirk Scroll down to see that picture of him. Or if not: http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:James_Kirk,_2270s.jpg Learn insignia recognition. I blame lousy civilian writers and costume departments for these problems, but otherwise Kirk is very well and good a Rear Admiral. (no upper half, because Commodore is the rank he skipped, obviously, using logic.)

(And for those who are counting, Captain Janeway made a bigger jump, from Captain to three pips on both sides of her collar [Which means Vice Admiral for those who are still unaable to count] when she appeared on Picards little viewscreen in Nemesis)
Proof: http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:Ka...eway,_2379.jpg Three, count them three = Vice Admiral. She got really bumped ahead.


For the life of me, here's one of the best compliations of rank used on the shows...
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Starfleet_ranks
You want to knwo why you never saw a Commodore TNG+? Because it was never displayed, that's all...no 'Admiral' ever wore a single pip on both sides.
That's because a single pip is a Commodore! Just the costume people never made one for those shows...and for some gods awful reason someone has taken that to mean there's no Commodores. I don't know how someone 'assumes' that the reason is because they changed the rank names. Why suddenly after oh even pre-Federation (ENT 2250's) would Starfleet abandon a single rank name and just change it...removing a rank? Fine. Adding one, sure...but changing one name...and to a more confusing one at that? Really...that makes as much sense as me saying that Andorians are now called: Humans upper half.
What he said!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 289
07-14-2010, 09:40 PM
The perception of inserting/replacing a Rear Admiral - Lower Half title with that of Commodore is not a demotion. It simply suggests an option over the cumbersome titles offered presently. The level ranges wouldn't have changed. Your skill points wouldn't have changed. You would lose nothing. Mojo's simple resolve of the matter would work wonders. Just offer the choice.

Now I have previously read from a Dev that the ranks had been set and no desire to change them. However, that was before we heard about lower-half and upper-half and Vice Admiral. So I'm not buying that as the current states of affairs. Unless I'm corrected and told otherwise.

And can someone kindly point me to a Dev quote where it was stated implicitly that use of Commodore wouldn't appear in STO? I very well might have missed such a thing. I really would like to read this - and understand it - if it happened. Thank you.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 290
07-14-2010, 10:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelSilhouette View Post
No. Read it in context and without adding periods. "an attack on US" US = Me + others. It has the same meaning as "WE" however not able to used interchangeably unless you're Johnny Vegas.
True, but considering he has us US in all pf his previous statements to define the United States, it's illogical to just assume that he meant other wise. He should have put Us or us instead of US, because while it does make more sense this way, going back to his earlier statements where he did implicitly us US (No periods) to imply the United States. My mistake on my part for not noticing the difference.

Now, back to the argument on hand. Commodore is a fairly useless thing to argue over. If they did decide to implement it, they would have to go back and replace all the text, all the audio files, and make sure they sinc up properly. I would rather have them create new content then spend the resources and money hiring back on the actor who did the original voices and spend development time on this instead of more worthy content.
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