Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 131
03-22-2009, 09:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horizon113 View Post
Sevenblade I find your reasoning on this to be both informative and insightful and I agree with a lot of what you said. I even agree partially with Zombies view of the federations stand point on the borg task force and I was not intending to contradict what was said.

I was trying to point to a reasoning to why the federation would dismantle the taskforce and send the ships away to other assignments. It seems from my perspective that the federation has been distracted by closer to home conflicts such as the romulans and klingons and the potential for conflict their. When I think of this I can picture some federation politician sitting at his desk hugging himself and giggling because he disbaded the useless "borg taskforce" and assingeg it to more "important duties". Its seems as though politicians are making the big decisions instead of the brass at starfleet. Or that parts of the brass at starfleet are those politicains hugging themselves.

When I look at the last 2 movies with the Baku and the Romulans it shows that the federation is breaking rules or taking gambles and hoping they will pay off. Breaking rules in the Baku relocation attempt and gambleing on the chance that a single change in romulan power would mean long lasting peace for the federation. Skullzy brought out part of my reasoning when he said "I would say itís not my assumption but Starfleet brass prioritizing active threats verses what by their information would seem like a historical threat"

To me it looks as though starfleet is making a new "Historical" error.

But thats just my point of view. If their are any questions let me know send me a message or just post im checking this "Path to 2409" forum until the new one comes out. I would especially like to here more from Sevenblade, Loekii, Zombie, and Skullzy for their perspective views.
Thank you, and I think you also make a good point. The dissolving of the task force does sound like a very short-sighted political maneuver, rather than one by informed Starfleet commanders. We've seen too many instances of wrong-headed political meddling that has cost us wars in the past (i.e., Vietnam, to some extent Korea, Iraq). To think that it couldn't happen to Starfleet is somewhat naive. Though in some of the latest shows and movies we've seen how corrupt or just thick-headed/stubborn some admirals can get (especially the one in Insurrection). Perhaps this is why Picard never wanted the job, so he wouldn't become detached from the reality of the situation.

And I also agree on turning their attention to more local matters. After all, the quadrants are already in a pretty good amount of turmoil without any full blown wars or Borg invasions. The Romulans are already on the brink of civil war by themselves, and the Klingons grow ever more aggressive to the point that we're almost at war again by 2409. It makes sense for a full military power like that right on our borders to take up more of our attention than a enemy who may or may not be able to attack us again anytime within the next decade or so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loekii View Post
Seven,

You keep hedging far too much on 'our knowledge of the future'. Just because I know the out come of a battle, does not mean that I cannot consider a decision to be a bad one with out that future knowledge. Leaders make bad decisions all the time, and critics can see the mistake without the knowledge of the outcome. Some bad decisions result in a lucky outcome, but that doesn't mean it was a good decision at the time.

From a tactical standpoint, there is a credible argument that disbanding the Task Force is a bad idea, or at the very least, premature. At that point of time, there is credible evidence -- without need of our 'future knowledge'.

What I was saying is ironic, is that this forum is divided simply in the view point of whether or not it was a bad decision -- which reflects the StarFleet Decision vs. Anika's position.
Granted, you can definitely make an evaluation that disbanding the taskforce is a bad idea without having a crystal ball. Clearly, Seven of Nine and a few other disgruntled individuals have already done so. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that we seem to think it's such an obvious decision because we've seen the Borg return in the trailer already. Since we've seen that, a lot of people are confusing what we know with what they know. For all they know, the Borg could have been crippled way more than we think and split into subfactions that got picked off by the Kazon or something (exaggeration to make a point). Yes, it's better to be safe than sorry with the Borg, but how can you keep people on a war footing for 7 years now and no enemy or even a hint to speak of?

There's credible evidence either way, but at the time, the lack of any Borg activity or even a hint of it weighs more in the Admrial's minds in favor of disbanding the task force, simply because it is too cost-efficient to gear defense towards a specific, absent enemy. They made an evaluation of what's at hand, and they risked saving resources that might help them in current, local struggles than devote them to a "What if?" scenario that might never play out.

And I really don't think the forum's really divided at all. Pretty much everyone I've seen thinks disbanding the task force was a stupid idea. We're just arguing over whether it makes sense in context of Star Trek history.
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# 132 Well now we know
03-23-2009, 12:05 AM
Well we know the borg are back what I am looking forward to is the technological upgrades that Anika and the Institute managed to make in order to fight the borg. From what I saw in the trailer it looks like the federation (dispite the dispanding of the borg taskforce) was able to start fighting with the borg on more even footing.

I am also wondering what Icheb's roll will be in the future it was mentioned that he joined starfleet and that Anika supported his decision but I wonder if he will be making any contributions to the federation or if he is just a side line to show Anika's evolving humanity and empathy.

And finally I noticed that it seems like people are assuming starfleet is completly inactive with regards to the borg, at least that is what Anika appears to be expressing. I would guess that even though the taskforce is disbanded I doubt the federation would ignore the Daystrom Institutes technological advancements after all Quantom torpedoes were originally designed for use against the borg but they were used by bothe the defiant and the enterprise anainst the Dominion and the Romulans.

I will enjoy seeing starfleet open a can of whoop butt on the Borg......and anyone else who chooses to begin an active conflist wheather they be Romulan,Breen,Tribbles,or Klingons
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 133 map of the threat
03-23-2009, 05:03 AM
We have a Picture for you to get you a view of the "threat" map of galaxy

You see the federaton is surounded by potential enemies, and the bajoran wormhole not making it better Infact Borg and Dominion are a good 70m ly apart too. Indeed the Klingons will be our biggest threat, asuming Cardassians dont have enough to eat. The one that has nothing to eat cannot fight back = no threat Who would be the bigger threat? Federation or Kliongons, hmmm ... the one side "peace loving, but nerve wrecking" the other side "die for honor in battle" ... Its not up to a low rank Captain like me to decide where the Empire will go to :p
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 134 Possibly
03-23-2009, 09:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nagash303 View Post
We have a Picture for you to get you a view of the "threat" map of galaxy

You see the federaton is surounded by potential enemies, and the bajoran wormhole not making it better Infact Borg and Dominion are a good 70m ly apart too. Indeed the Klingons will be our biggest threat, asuming Cardassians dont have enough to eat. The one that has nothing to eat cannot fight back = no threat Who would be the bigger threat? Federation or Kliongons, hmmm ... the one side "peace loving, but nerve wrecking" the other side "die for honor in battle" ... Its not up to a low rank Captain like me to decide where the Empire will go to :p
Im afraid I could not judge the threat based on a map that may not even be completely accurate with the game, Im sure the distribution of territory will be similar but I doubt they are gonna use this exact map in order to show how the galaxy is devided up territory wise. It is also not a indication of the threat of a nation I mean look at canada one of the largest size wise, even bigger then china yet we arnt much of a threat to anyone.

No i am afraid we will have to wait and see what cryptic gives us in the way of a galactic map and backstory in order to really judge the threat posed by these races.
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# 135
03-23-2009, 11:52 AM
Just to clarify, I am not saying it is 'obvious', but rather saying I view it as a tactical error -- which is why I thought it ironic to see similar divisions on the forum.

As far as 'greatest threat', again, I think that is subject to debate. Currently, the Klingon, Romulans, etc, while posing a threat, are not an 'appocolypic' threat. The Borg, if they were to show up, would immediately superceed the threat possed by the Romulans and/or Klingons. The Federation could hold out in a protracted war against the ladder, but not the former.

Its about multi-tasking and proper threat assessment. What I see in Star Fleets decision, is a gamble on very little intell, on something that if they guess 'wrong', has very costly results. Again, given the nature of Star Trek, I am surprised to see Star Fleet come to the conclusion that the Borg's only way to the Alpha Quadrant has been perminately sealed, and that the soonest they could ever arrive would be in Decades. Star Fleet has encountered numerous instances where their own ships have traveled incredible distances. Why would they assume that the Borg would never be able to find something like that.

It would be one thing, if the Feds were in a stalemate or losing war, but they are not. They are basically at a time of peace, with with their potential enemies occupied with their own problems. At this point, the Romulans are not really in a position to launch a successful war against the Federation, and the relations with the Klingons seems calm as well.

So considering they don't have any 'current' enemies, so to speak, proclaiming that the biggest threat with the least amount of intell to be 'neutralized' is pretty premature in my opinion. They have no idea what the Borg are doing, how 'crippled' they truly are, etc. For all Star Fleet knows, the Borg could on the virge of discovering a fast track link to the Alpha Quadrant again.
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# 136
03-23-2009, 01:41 PM
interesting story
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 137
03-23-2009, 10:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loekii View Post
Just to clarify, I am not saying it is 'obvious', but rather saying I view it as a tactical error -- which is why I thought it ironic to see similar divisions on the forum.

As far as 'greatest threat', again, I think that is subject to debate. Currently, the Klingon, Romulans, etc, while posing a threat, are not an 'appocolypic' threat. The Borg, if they were to show up, would immediately superceed the threat possed by the Romulans and/or Klingons. The Federation could hold out in a protracted war against the ladder, but not the former.

Its about multi-tasking and proper threat assessment. What I see in Star Fleets decision, is a gamble on very little intell, on something that if they guess 'wrong', has very costly results. Again, given the nature of Star Trek, I am surprised to see Star Fleet come to the conclusion that the Borg's only way to the Alpha Quadrant has been perminately sealed, and that the soonest they could ever arrive would be in Decades. Star Fleet has encountered numerous instances where their own ships have traveled incredible distances. Why would they assume that the Borg would never be able to find something like that.

It would be one thing, if the Feds were in a stalemate or losing war, but they are not. They are basically at a time of peace, with with their potential enemies occupied with their own problems. At this point, the Romulans are not really in a position to launch a successful war against the Federation, and the relations with the Klingons seems calm as well.

So considering they don't have any 'current' enemies, so to speak, proclaiming that the biggest threat with the least amount of intell to be 'neutralized' is pretty premature in my opinion. They have no idea what the Borg are doing, how 'crippled' they truly are, etc. For all Star Fleet knows, the Borg could on the virge of discovering a fast track link to the Alpha Quadrant again.
Really? I haven't seen anyone else who didn't think it was a tactical error...Wow, apparently some here are as short-sighted as the Starfleet brass. /shrug


Though the way you're evaluating threats is a little skewed. Yes, the Borg's military might will continue to be a 'bigger' or 'more dangerous' threat than probably the Klingons and Romulans combined. However, pure military might is not nearly the only factor to consider in the threat factor of a faction. Proximity and ability to move against you also factors in, factors that both the rapidly destablizing Romulan and Klingon Empires have in much higher degree than the Borg.
Contrary to your assessment of relations being calm with them, the Romulans were just on the brink of civil war that could have spilled over Federation borders, but now with their recent reunification, they might choose to stop stabbing each other's backs and return to focusing on their historical enemy. As for the Klingons, things are anything but calm with increasingly frosty relations (ambassadors being withdrawn, condemnation of the respective government's actions, and the expulsion of non-Klingon persons from Khitomer). With the Klingons acting aggressive to the Gorn as well, a prudent Starfleet admiral would be focusing on putting ships near the Federation-Klingon border before anything else, in case they feel the Empire needs to expand once more in 'glorious battle'.

Yes, Starfleet should definitely be multi-tasking, and should never not plan to defend against the Borg, but then again I doubt that they aren't. They were simply too destructive and adaptable to not have some sort of contingency plan. Sure, the Borg could find some unconventional method of finding their way back to the Alpha Quadrant, but history shows that galaxy-traveling distortions are relatively few and far between. If they weren't, the Gamma Quadrant wormhole wouldn't be nearly as economically and strategically valuable as it is (also because it's stable, something most galaxy-traveling anomalies tend not to be, which therefore doesn't make them reliable military assets for the Borg). Therefore, Starfleet will focus on their hostile next-door neighbors, rather than a threat with a much statistically lower chance of attacking us.

Besides, when we really get down to it, how much more effective the would the anti-Borg task force actually have done against the adaptable Borg than the general defense ships? All we've really got so far are the transphasic torpedoes, which aren't even being deployed almost at all, and I'm sure any ship is capable of launching them with a few modifications. Not to mention that I'm sure that no matter how long it takes or how many ships/drones it costs, the Borg will eventually find a way to adapt. Unless we leapfrog another 30 years of Starfleet technological advancement again with another blatant violation of the Temporal Prime Directive, there's really nothing an Anti-Borg task force has going for it more than the rest of the fleet. Overall, it's just not cost-efficient.


Just to make sure, I want to state again that I'm not defending Starfleet's decision, because as though I can definitely understand the reasoning behind their decision (as I'm trying to state it in express detail in this thread), I don't agree with it. I simply want to provide a rebuttal to all those who don't believe the decision makes sense in terms of realistic Star Trek history.
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# 138 Threat Assesment
03-24-2009, 09:29 AM
I think im with Sevenblade on this one the problems on the front lawn are more urgent then the problems across the street down the road and through the park. Im not saying the borg arnt still a threat they are. But honestly a full out war with the klingons or the romulans (or both) could be disastourous and fatal. Honestly the klingons and the romulans could start a war that could destroy the federation or do so much damage to it that they dont have the ability to keep their multi race nation together.

Think of it like a nuclear war. The russians (borg) have enough nukes to kill everything on the earth ten times over. While China (Romulans) only have enough nukes to kill everything once. Either way we are still at risk of destruction.

One thing though that I havnt noticed anyone point out is that borg ships or at least a few of them already have transwarp drive meaning they can get here a lot faster then people seem to think and that means it will still be a long journey but as has been pointed out the borg are patient.

I agree with sevenblade's thought on the taskforce and how it might not do a whole lot of good either way.
I think the removal of it is a mistake but I can certenly see the reasoning (or some reasoning) behind it.
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# 139
03-24-2009, 02:27 PM
If the Borg send a few cubes, they could be defeated. if they send multithousands at once, nothing short of the Caelier or Q would help.
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# 140
03-24-2009, 11:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronaldheld View Post
If the Borg send a few cubes, they could be defeated. if they send multithousands at once, nothing short of the Caelier or Q would help.
Eh...we saw what happens with even just one cube (Wolf 359, Sector 001). With the transphasic torpedoes, we might be able to fend off a few if we detonate the transphasics simulataneously. Though if 10 or more cubes came through, we'd need nothing short of all of the Alpha/Beta Quadrant powers banding together for a common defense to even think about repelling them.
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