Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
07-13-2010, 09:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister_Mayhem
If there were no skill cap at this point....

Would a Tactical Officer have access to Sensor Scan, Subnucleonic Beam, Dampening Field, Photonic Fleet, Rotate Shield Frequency, EPS Power Transfer, and Miracle Worker?

Would a Tactical Officer be able to use an Engineering Kit or a Science Kit?

Would a Vulcan have the same traits as an Andorian or a Klingon or a Benzite or an Orion?
You really think that if a single engineering character could have all available skills maxed out to 9, he would ever roll another Engineer just to have one of a different race? Really?

You really think for one second that if every toon had all weapon skills maxed, someone wouldn't do the parses, figure out what the 'best' weapon is, and everyone would then be using the exact same weapons? And then Cryptic wouldn't come in to try to 're-balance' the weapons and end up in and endless cycle of buffs and nerfs to different weapon types?

You really think that having one less thing that separates your character from other characters of the same class (i.e. your build) would give people a stronger feeling of connection to their character, rather than a weaker one?

You really think that having one less thing to theorycraft and adjust and play with (builds) would cause people to play this game longer, rather than less?

Because if you do think any of those things, my followup question is going to be how you can possibly logically justify them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
07-13-2010, 10:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterMiracle View Post
You really think that if a single engineering character could have all available skills maxed out to 9, he would ever roll another Engineer just to have one of a different race? Really?
Yes, really. Furthermore, I think this hypothetical person might even go so far as to PAY EXTRA for a favorite race to play as another Engineer should it become available in the c-store.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterMiracle View Post
You really think for one second that if every toon had all weapon skills maxed, someone wouldn't do the parses, figure out what the 'best' weapon is, and everyone would then be using the exact same weapons? And then Cryptic wouldn't come in to try to 're-balance' the weapons and end up in and endless cycle of buffs and nerfs to different weapon types?
You really think this isn't happening even with the skill cap?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterMiracle View Post
You really think that having one less thing that separates your character from other characters of the same class (i.e. your build) would give people a stronger feeling of connection to their character, rather than a weaker one?
I don't think that people who feel 'connected' to their characters are the same people who min/max to eke out every tiny little advantage, although there are probably exceptions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterMiracle View Post
You really think that having one less thing to theorycraft and adjust and play with (builds) would cause people to play this game longer, rather than less?
I'm beginning to think that you think the min/max folks are the only people who play the game that matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterMiracle View Post
Because if you do think any of those things, my followup question is going to be how you can possibly logically justify them.
I think, really, that you didn't answer my previous questions because in doing so you would by force of circumstance have invalidated your 'all characters would be identical' argument. :p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
07-13-2010, 10:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister_Mayhem

I think, really, that you didn't answer my previous questions because in doing so you would by force of circumstance have invalidated your 'all characters would be identical' argument. :p
I never made that argument. I said 'all characters within a class' would be identical. Which none of your arguments went to, except perhaps the race argument. And again, as I pointed out, right now, my Engineer can be different from your engineer by being a different race, having a different set of skill specializations, having a different crew, and flying a different ship. They're adding slots to let me get as many ships and crew as I want. You want to take away the skill specializations. How does 'less customization' improve the game for anyone? There would be a handful of people who would make a second whatever for another race, just like there are a handful of people in other games who make multiple characters of the same class...but not many. One of the things counterbalancing the limited (3) number of classes in this game is the fact that I can make, for example, two science officers and make one of them 'Science' based and one of them a Doctor, and have them be completely different and completely different playstyles. No skill cap means I have one Sci with two kits. That means fewer alts. That means people not playing the game for as much time.

I'm not talking about 'min/maxing'. I'm talking about customization. I'm talking about making your character your own, and different from everyone else's. This is one of the big draws of MMO's, being able to develop a unique character, and putting a lot of time and effort into making a character your own is one of the biggest things in encouraging loyalty, and keeping people playing a game. Why do you think MMO's don't delete peoples' characters, no matter how long they unsubscribe? Because they know being able to come back to their characters will be one of the biggest draws if they ever do come back.

Customization and options are good. Making choices is good. I don't know of a single game where you don't 'spec' your character somehow...mostly for the reasons I've indicated in this and my previous posts. I'm amazed that there are people arguing that they want fewer options.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
07-13-2010, 11:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDK-187
so twenty levels for teir 5 should give people plenty of skill points to spend on their character builds, but where does teir 6 come into the equation - 61 plus?
That's just it. Tier 6 is not listed in Destra's post. And the Ask Cryptic thing about T6 ships indicated they are still in the very basic "what do we do with a tier 6?" stage of planning.

Even if T6 is level 61 ... by the time you get TO 61 ... you'll have had so much extra points to spend on Tiers 1 through 5, that the skill cap stops preventing you from spreading out into ... multiple ships ... multiple weapon types ... multiple beam types.

It's still an obstacle. You can't max out every skill. But it's so much softer.

They've added in 3 new skills to the skill tree so far. They'll add more. But they won't be adding dozens of more, due to game balance issues.

It's going to be very interesting in the 51 to 60 level range as people will have the freedom to fill out their builds.

IF they keep to Destra's plan. Which is a big if.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
07-13-2010, 11:18 AM
Sounds good to me. I want to be able to fly any type of ship without sacrificing my Rank III skills.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
07-14-2010, 11:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister_Mayhem
Do not want continually moving level cap.

On record!
Agreed. We are already at the point of diminishing returns. Enough already!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
07-15-2010, 12:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack_Armstrong View Post
The skill tree was designed with no skill cap in mind. So, it doesn't work very well with the cap.
That's nonsense. Or if they designed it with no skill cap in mind, they utterly failed, since there is a lmited number of skills and max rank for every skill. Without a skill cap, you end up with skill points you can't spend because you have maxed every skill.

The skill modifier you can achieve is also not subject to any diminishing return.s Which means if they would remove the max skill values, you could raise your skills ridicilously high and basically deal 10 Million damage with your Mark X Phasers or whatever. This would create ridicilous differences between players with the same skill points. Not even just in the long run, starting at your first levels it would go out of hand.

Maybe they once had a plan to go without a skill cap, but they certainly implemented nothing in a way that it could actually work in a balanced, stable way.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
07-17-2010, 10:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
Maybe they once had a plan to go without a skill cap, but they certainly implemented nothing in a way that it could actually work in a balanced, stable way.
Cryptic announced a while back during closed beta (or before, I can't really remember) that there was going to be no skill cap and that you would be able to just keep spending SP to improve your skills. They changed their minds just before the game went live and said that there is now a skill cap in place. There was a huge outrage from the player base when this happened. So, yeah. They created the skill tree without a cap in mind. That's why I say that there needs to be some serious revamp in the system, especially with the weapon types.

And I'm running what I call a "skittle boat", a star cruiser packed with turrets of every weapon type. So I ended up gimping myself in dps because the points were prohibitively expensive. That might change when I hit VA1, but probably not with the point cost skewed like it is.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
07-17-2010, 10:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister_Mayhem
Do not want continually moving level cap.

On record!
"Do not want a cap at all"
Was the point these people were trying to make. A point you have either chosen to ignore or have missed
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
07-17-2010, 10:21 AM
Oh quit worrying about the skill cap. It'll be removable for 2000 cp. That'll be per character though.
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