Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 231
08-12-2010, 11:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelineAaele View Post
Originally Posted by MelineAaele View Post
Originally Posted by Cpt.William2
The tier 1 Connie has several Unique abilities-

It is the only Tier 1 Ship w/ 20% More HP

It is the only Tier 1 Ship with 2 Eng Console Slots

It is the only ship with Scalable phasers

- It is also a D2D / Preorder (which I forget) so its a perk for buying it at a particular time/place - Like I mentioned, adding the D2D perks (like the Connie, uniforms, auto defense battery etc) to the CS is acceptable imo.

Which made it quite limited and not everyone could get one. But it required at least a $60 investment, not a measly few bucks.

Precisely, should everything people paid "more" for, be given out free? If it were free, I should have just paid for a regular copy, and not a deluxe edition.

It was actually the Gamestop Pre-Order and was a reward for doing something (pre-order) as the Galaxy-X was (RAF), no money was spent specifically on it.

They have traits like "pig-Headed", "Dumb Luck" and "FEline Instinct" that are unavailable to anyone else, AKA Unique. And some of them are very valuable, a much lower chance of being held in place and shot at is a very good advantage.

Well, to be honest Ive never played any of these races, so I dont know how major or minor the traits are - I doubt they are enough to give their players a significant advantage over a "normal" character.

I have read from many people that have these characters, they have seen much better performance in PvP and elsewhere do to many of these traits.


Ah, but the "ordinary" races also have their traits, that in the right situations give better performance.. In the end the difference is that they are.. different.. It doesnt change the game, or give them some major advantage.. In space they are actually disadvantaged (compared to a all space trait alien) :p


The point is that players are PAYING to get an advantage over other players. That is stupid and something Cryptic pre-launch said they were against.

If they were just visual, I would be okay with it. Heck, I'm even ok with them putting in those kinds of races (Pakleds or Caitians) because they are rare in Trek. But species that are commonly shown (Ferengi, Klingon, Tellarite) just ticks me off, especially when they don't fit with the (poor) reasoning of the C-Store.


I dont know, but I seem to remember far more humans than aliens in Starfleet.. Picard, Kirk, Sisko, Janeway, Chacotay, Seven, Geordi, Archer and so on and so forth.. Sure, there were aliens here and there (always a Vulcan for some reason) but seriously.. Have you see SB 1? There are aliens *everywhere*


Because there wasn't budget for so many alien types on the show. And the show was about the Human spirit and how it had evolved, that isn't what this game is about.


Maybe not in the shows, but they by the end of the shows, there was inferrence that more would come.
Especially the Ferengi, considering all the reforms Rom would make.
Heck, in several alternate timelines, Ferengi/Klingons have been shown in Starfleet.


Again, to quote one of my favorite actors in the series - Logic dictates that a race to whom honour is essential to existance, would not likely join with another organization at war with their own people.. Hell, even Martok refused to challenge Gowron, even when he knew his orders were given with a personal (and dishonorable) agenda.. I quote again "I swore an oath" Martok was willing to do anything and everything, he was ordered, because honour demanded it.

Remember : Honour is life


Except that the Klingons in Starfleet may see the Chancellor's actions as dishonorable and unworthy of following. AKA Worf during the Klingon-Federation War. Besides that, How does that legitimize charging for that option?


Even Worf joined the Empire in this situation.. And seeing as he is "the most honourable man Ive known", that arguement is invalid.. And still wouldnt explain the number of Klingons on the blue side.. Sure, Klingons in Starfleet should be possible (traitors, cowards, exiles etc) but they should be rare.. Which is where the charge comes in


No, he joined up with his brother during the Klingon Civil War of 2368 against the Duras sisters.
During the Federation-Klingon War of 2372-2373, he served as Strategic Operations Officer at DS9, against the Klingons.


As for the Ferengi.. Do you really believe that a race that for hundred of years have cared about nothing but profit, to the point of betraying/assasinating their own familymembers would, in large numbers, join a organization where money have no value, where there is *no* profit whatsoever?

Maybe during TNG and most of Early DS9, but considering all the changes to Ferengi civilization by Zek, and the changes by Rom, and the fact that they have been depicted as in Starfleet in Alternate Futures, and the fact that Path to 2409 mentions an increase in Ferengi attending Starfleet, I would say yes. Also, if they were so scarce, why are their so many BO's?


I doubt an entire races mindset would be changed .. in a decade, millenia.. Some would "turn" sure, but in limited numbers.

Allready said that I wanted fewer Klingons and Ferengi in the BO lists.. Imo, they should have been an unique BO rewarded for a mission (help an exiled Klingon, and he joins with you)


[COLOR="rgb(65, 105, 225)"]Not the entire race would join Starfleet but a lot would, considering how many are being put into schools and taught stuff more in line with Federation ideals. And btw, it has been 35 years since Rom became Nagus and even before that Ishka was changing things using Zek. [/color]

Even if there are few shown, the "reason" that Cryptic gives for C-Store content doesn't explain them.

Simple .. You get this and this and this and this (x100).. If you want that or that, you can have it, but need to pay for it.


Their reasoning for the C-Store, from Stahl, is that they need it to justify making content such as the Excelsior model, which makes no sense when applied to the Klingon, Ferengi, and Tellarites as the skins and models were in game, at launch.

And as for the C-Store in general

Either 1) They are hiring more people (which is unlikely, based on their press releases)

2) Subscription pays for :
Content A
Content B
Content C
Content D

Fans want extra content (E)

Like Nebulons and such?

Content D workers instead work on Content E, which you are then charged for.

So, at the end of the day, you paid for

A,B,C, and D

But only got A,B,&C and are told to pay extra for Content E

No, because Content D is not gone, it is merely delayed
As in I paid $15 this month, got $10 worth, and was told I'd have to pay $5 for Content E.


OR 3)

You paid for A,B,C,D and so they divert some of the workers to Content E

And A,B,C,D drop in quality

And A,B,C,D will be improved upon, once Content E is out.
Not necessarily. They have shown a remarkable propensity towards releasing garbage content full of bugs, that are never fixed.

Weeeeeell, the game is not that old.. Serious gamebreaking bugs, take precedence over minor issues.. Understand that they have a strictly planned schedule a while ahead, and all fixed bugs (as well as minor requested changes) are done in the sparetime..

Id hazard a guess that the "severity" of issues and how they are prioritized in the "to-do" list is based on the number of tickets on each one.


And your understanding of the intricate, inner workings of Cryptic come from where? What they're schedule is like is unknown to those who don't work there, so unless you actually work at Cryptic, that is peculation. And bug if bug fixes only occur in spare time, this company is crappier than I thought.
10 Characters.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 232
08-12-2010, 11:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt.William2 View Post
Yes, it did change.
They didn't change their policy any more than they already told you it could or would change when you bought the game.

They're fine. They're covered. Everything is as they said it would be.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 233
08-12-2010, 12:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by superchum View Post
They didn't change their policy any more than they already told you it could or would change when you bought the game.

They're fine. They're covered. Everything is as they said it would be.
Legally, yes, they are covered. They have done nothing illegal.

But morality and legality are tow seperate things. In my opinion, any company that makes a statement that central to a product and has it posted across tons of web articles, that just ignores it when they see fit, is immoral and unethical.

Their EULA says they can change it, not that they would change it. Unless, of course, you know of a forum post where they specifically said they would change it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 234 Please close this thread
08-12-2010, 01:28 PM
Please close this thread
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 235
08-12-2010, 05:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt.William2 View Post
But morality and legality are tow seperate things. In my opinion, any company that makes a statement that central to a product and has it posted across tons of web articles, that just ignores it when they see fit, is immoral and unethical.
They're practicing within working parameters in terms of business ethics. They're not doing anything immoral. Or even amoral. A lot of the things they've done, other businesses do and no one bats an eyelash. Microsoft does this. And they're plugging along same old same old.

Quote:
Their EULA says they can change it, not that they would change it. Unless, of course, you know of a forum post where they specifically said they would change it.
Here's how it goes. Their EULA says they can change it. They then decide to change it. They then post about something that is coming and it demonstrates they are changing it.

A wonderful example is the Excelsior. First it wasn't in-game. Then it was in a poll. Then it was announced it was coming. Then it was announced it was coming to the C-Store. Then it was announced that the T3 is coming to the game for free. But a T5 refit was coming to the C-Store.

That's the lifecycle of something changing. Frequently. With relevant announcements to when they were changed.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 236
08-12-2010, 07:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by superchum View Post
A wonderful example is the Excelsior. First it wasn't in-game. Then it was in a poll. Then it was announced it was coming. Then it was announced it was coming to the C-Store. Then it was announced that the T3 is coming to the game for free. But a T5 refit was coming to the C-Store.
We saw the tricks Cryptic played with the Excelsior. I fear that the Nebula will be no better. In fact worse. Cryptic "sees" the issue with the Excelsior being placed in the C-Store and are going to follow Cryptic SOP...quick money grabs are better than long term profit.

They know that they once again insulted the player base, lost players, and are going to keep on losing players. The wosrt part is the cheap purposely misleading statements that Dstahl provides as "cover stories" about why certain items are placed in the C-Store are quickly broken down by previous commets that he and other Cryptic employees have made.

The numbers did pick up right after season 2 launched and just over 2 weeks later are back down to "normal" Most of the players that did return were probably lifers so Crypic made no gains there.

As far as the new polls that Cryptic carries out, are seen as "What items can we place in the C-Store for the most money". Fool me once.....
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 237
08-12-2010, 07:32 PM
Ok, I need clarification...

The Excelsior is going to be a Tier 3 ship (Cruiser, I expect) that I have access to WITHOUT having to buy from the C-Store?

If this is so, I'm not as disgusted as I was. As long as I have access to the ship, I don't care if they put an alternative version of it on the C-Store.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 238
08-12-2010, 07:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by superchum View Post
They're practicing within working parameters in terms of business ethics. They're not doing anything immoral. Or even amoral. A lot of the things they've done, other businesses do and no one bats an eyelash. Microsoft does this. And they're plugging along same old same old.
Could you please provide me with an example of how Microsoft does this? Making a statement about how a policy regarding multiple products are going to operate and then changing it at launch with virtually no pre-warning.


As for immoral, morality is different depending on the person. In my opinion, a company that makes a statement about how multiple products are going to operate and then changing it at launch with virtually no pre-warning is immoral.

Quote:
Originally Posted by superchum View Post
Here's how it goes. Their EULA says they can change it. They then decide to change it. They then post about something that is coming and it demonstrates they are changing it.

A wonderful example is the Excelsior. First it wasn't in-game. Then it was in a poll. Then it was announced it was coming. Then it was announced it was coming to the C-Store. Then it was announced that the T3 is coming to the game for free. But a T5 refit was coming to the C-Store.

That's the lifecycle of something changing. Frequently. With relevant announcements to when they were changed.
What they did is make a statement, ignore and violate the conditions of that statement, and then deny that they did by calling it a "misquote" even though it is clearly not.


There statement regarding how the C-Store would work was one of the deciding factors in my purchase of the game, a Lifetime Subscription, and a new graphics card. Their new policy of just ignoring that particular statement and acting as if they never violated it is in my opinion an indication of a company without ethics, morals, or honor. As the Klingons would say "A petaQ of a company."
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 239
08-14-2010, 05:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelineAaele View Post
Originally Posted by MelineAaele View Post
Originally Posted by Cpt.William2
The tier 1 Connie has several Unique abilities-

It is the only Tier 1 Ship w/ 20% More HP

It is the only Tier 1 Ship with 2 Eng Console Slots

It is the only ship with Scalable phasers

- It is also a D2D / Preorder (which I forget) so its a perk for buying it at a particular time/place - Like I mentioned, adding the D2D perks (like the Connie, uniforms, auto defense battery etc) to the CS is acceptable imo.

Which made it quite limited and not everyone could get one. But it required at least a $60 investment, not a measly few bucks.

Precisely, should everything people paid "more" for, be given out free? If it were free, I should have just paid for a regular copy, and not a deluxe edition.

It was actually the Gamestop Pre-Order and was a reward for doing something (pre-order) as the Galaxy-X was (RAF), no money was spent specifically on it.

In either case, it was a reward as you say.. Then A: it shouldnt be availible at all *or* B: It should be availible for a fee


They have traits like "pig-Headed", "Dumb Luck" and "FEline Instinct" that are unavailable to anyone else, AKA Unique. And some of them are very valuable, a much lower chance of being held in place and shot at is a very good advantage.

Well, to be honest Ive never played any of these races, so I dont know how major or minor the traits are - I doubt they are enough to give their players a significant advantage over a "normal" character.

I have read from many people that have these characters, they have seen much better performance in PvP and elsewhere do to many of these traits.


Ah, but the "ordinary" races also have their traits, that in the right situations give better performance.. In the end the difference is that they are.. different.. It doesnt change the game, or give them some major advantage.. In space they are actually disadvantaged (compared to a all space trait alien)

The point is that players are PAYING to get an advantage over other players. That is stupid and something Cryptic pre-launch said they were against.

My arguement is that these races are not better or worse than the existing - They get X advantage but also Y disadvantage.



If they were just visual, I would be okay with it. Heck, I'm even ok with them putting in those kinds of races (Pakleds or Caitians) because they are rare in Trek. But species that are commonly shown (Ferengi, Klingon, Tellarite) just ticks me off, especially when they don't fit with the (poor) reasoning of the C-Store.


I dont know, but I seem to remember far more humans than aliens in Starfleet.. Picard, Kirk, Sisko, Janeway, Chacotay, Seven, Geordi, Archer and so on and so forth.. Sure, there were aliens here and there (always a Vulcan for some reason) but seriously.. Have you see SB 1? There are aliens *everywhere*

Because there wasn't budget for so many alien types on the show. And the show was about the Human spirit and how it had evolved, that isn't what this game is about.

Starfleet is still a mainly a human organization.. Nowhere have I seen or heard of there being a majority of aliens in Starfleet (outside the other factions ofcourse) - Alien captains should be possible, but uncommon.

Maybe not in the shows, but they by the end of the shows, there was inferrence that more would come.
Especially the Ferengi, considering all the reforms Rom would make.
Heck, in several alternate timelines, Ferengi/Klingons have been shown in Starfleet.


Again, to quote one of my favorite actors in the series - Logic dictates that a race to whom honour is essential to existance, would not likely join with another organization at war with their own people.. Hell, even Martok refused to challenge Gowron, even when he knew his orders were given with a personal (and dishonorable) agenda.. I quote again "I swore an oath" Martok was willing to do anything and everything, he was ordered, because honour demanded it.

Remember : Honour is life

Except that the Klingons in Starfleet may see the Chancellor's actions as dishonorable and unworthy of following. AKA Worf during the Klingon-Federation War. Besides that, How does that legitimize charging for that option?


Even Worf joined the Empire in this situation.. And seeing as he is "the most honourable man Ive known", that arguement is invalid.. And still wouldnt explain the number of Klingons on the blue side.. Sure, Klingons in Starfleet should be possible (traitors, cowards, exiles etc) but they should be rare.. Which is where the charge comes in

No, he joined up with his brother during the Klingon Civil War of 2368 against the Duras sisters.
During the Federation-Klingon War of 2372-2373, he served as Strategic Operations Officer at DS9, against the Klingons.

Yet in this case he chose to side with the Klingon Empire, because he found their actions honourable.. Even one of the loading screens, tell how Starfleet Intelligence suspects that there are infiltrators in all ranks/tiers of Starfleet (remember that Admiral Zelle and the "Vulcan" ambassador?) - The loading screens also tell us how the Klingons executed a large number of Undine infiltrators after they had conquered the Gorn.. So, clearly the Klingons are not "wrong"

The Duras sisters were never honourable... It isnt suggested anywhere.. The majority of Klingons would be against their actions.

In the DS9 incident, he was against the Empire, because he found their course of action dishonorable.. It is later shown that he was correct in this decision, since Gowron clearly had personal agendas, and used dishonourable methods to further his case (like sending Martok on impossible missions - With the sole intent of discrediting him)

Stricktly speaking, his choices were "treason", but really.. How much do a oath to a liar mean?


As for the Ferengi.. Do you really believe that a race that for hundred of years have cared about nothing but profit, to the point of betraying/assasinating their own familymembers would, in large numbers, join a organization where money have no value, where there is *no* profit whatsoever?

Maybe during TNG and most of Early DS9, but considering all the changes to Ferengi civilization by Zek, and the changes by Rom, and the fact that they have been depicted as in Starfleet in Alternate Futures, and the fact that Path to 2409 mentions an increase in Ferengi attending Starfleet, I would say yes. Also, if they were so scarce, why are their so many BO's?


I doubt an entire races mindset would be changed .. in a decade, millenia.. Some would "turn" sure, but in limited numbers.

Allready said that I wanted fewer Klingons and Ferengi in the BO lists.. Imo, they should have been an unique BO rewarded for a mission (help an exiled Klingon, and he joins with you)

[COLOR="rgb(65, 105, 225)"]Not the entire race would join Starfleet but a lot would, considering how many are being put into schools and taught stuff more in line with Federation ideals. And btw, it has been 35 years since Rom became Nagus and even before that Ishka was changing things using Zek. [/color]

Even if there are few shown, the "reason" that Cryptic gives for C-Store content doesn't explain them.

Simple .. You get this and this and this and this (x100).. If you want that or that, you can have it, but need to pay for it.

Their reasoning for the C-Store, from Stahl, is that they need it to justify making content such as the Excelsior model, which makes no sense when applied to the Klingon, Ferengi, and Tellarites as the skins and models were in game, at launch.

It still takes coding to change them to a playable species.. Maybe not a lot, but some..


And as for the C-Store in general

Either 1) They are hiring more people (which is unlikely, based on their press releases)

2) Subscription pays for :
Content A
Content B
Content C
Content D

Fans want extra content (E)

Like Nebulons and such?

Content D workers instead work on Content E, which you are then charged for.

So, at the end of the day, you paid for

A,B,C, and D

But only got A,B,&C and are told to pay extra for Content E

No, because Content D is not gone, it is merely delayed
As in I paid $15 this month, got $10 worth, and was told I'd have to pay $5 for Content E.


OR 3)

You paid for A,B,C,D and so they divert some of the workers to Content E

And A,B,C,D drop in quality

And A,B,C,D will be improved upon, once Content E is out.
Not necessarily. They have shown a remarkable propensity towards releasing garbage content full of bugs, that are never fixed.

Weeeeeell, the game is not that old.. Serious gamebreaking bugs, take precedence over minor issues.. Understand that they have a strictly planned schedule a while ahead, and all fixed bugs (as well as minor requested changes) are done in the sparetime..

Id hazard a guess that the "severity" of issues and how they are prioritized in the "to-do" list is based on the number of tickets on each one.

And your understanding of the intricate, inner workings of Cryptic come from where? What they're schedule is like is unknown to those who don't work there, so unless you actually work at Cryptic, that is peculation. And bug if bug fixes only occur in spare time, this company is crappier than I thought.

My understanding of the workings of a MMO company comes from the other MMOs Ive played.. They have a schedule, the calendar with upcoming changes proves this.. This schedule isnt limited to the things we see there, they have planned a long ahead of that.. Now a bug can be fixed by changing a single line of code or correcting a typo.. It can also take a long long time, if the bug is tied up with other things (which they often are) Fixing one bug in a hurry, might create 5 new bugs..

Example: In SWG (spacepart JtL) the Royal Guard Interceptor was bugged (its hitbox was too small), there were an outcry, and it was fixed in a hurry.. This broke the hitbox of the ARC-170.. That was fixed, and the turrets fireing arcs broke..

Example: Also in SWG, the other POB ships besides the YT-2400 had a bug with the booster.. Every time the energy were exhausted the ships speed were set to zero.. The boosters were fixed, and the enginemounts dissapeared, the interior textures were also broken..
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 240
08-14-2010, 11:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelineAaele View Post
My understanding of the workings of a MMO company comes from the other MMOs Ive played.. They have a schedule, the calendar with upcoming changes proves this.. This schedule isnt limited to the things we see there, they have planned a long ahead of that.. Now a bug can be fixed by changing a single line of code or correcting a typo.. It can also take a long long time, if the bug is tied up with other things (which they often are) Fixing one bug in a hurry, might create 5 new bugs..
[/color]

Alot of the issues people are having with STO is that there are alot of bugs that have been here since CB. Eight months later, they still exist. Some as you say can be changed within a single line such as typo's (that still exist) and other bugs that may take many lines of code (Kar'rat).

Cryptic seems more inclinded to create items for the C-Store then they are to actually fix bugs. There is no money in fixing bugs, plain and simple. However, there is money in placing $25 ships in the C-Store.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MelineAaele View Post
They have shown a remarkable propensity towards releasing garbage content full of bugs, that are never fixed.
This is the reply we recieved after the complaints of the VA Fluidic Space Fleet Action.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dstahl View Post
We will not release this Fleet Action to Holodeck until we are all happy with it. So please (while keeping in mind the herding bug) keep the feedback constructive and lets get this to a point where it is entertaining and fun to play.
The FA is in game, it is broke. You are correct in your statement that cryptic releases garbage and that they never intend to fix bugs.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MelineAaele View Post
Weeeeeell, the game is not that old.. Serious gamebreaking bugs, take precedence over minor issues.. Understand that they have a strictly planned schedule a while ahead, and all fixed bugs (as well as minor requested changes) are done in the sparetime..

Id hazard a guess that the "severity" of issues and how they are prioritized in the "to-do" list is based on the number of tickets on each one.

And your understanding of the intricate, inner workings of Cryptic come from where? What they're schedule is like is unknown to those who don't work there, so unless you actually work at Cryptic, that is peculation. And bug if bug fixes only occur in spare time, this company is crappier than I thought.
This is a beliveable hypothosis regarding company policy to bug fixes. (Refer to my statement above about C-Store)
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