Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 41
07-15-2010, 07:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hafoc View Post
From another post he made, he gives the impression that we should also be thankful that they provided bug fixes, minor changes, etc for free.
Would you be happier if they didn't?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 42
07-15-2010, 08:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flato View Post
While this may be true the game desperately needed those updates.........
Quote:
Originally Posted by modemfox View Post
Content?

Thats laughable.
Fair enough, but two ships in a C-Store are hardly content either, IMPO. They're nice, certainly, but they certainly don't add is much depth and breadth to a game as a new mission or storyline.

It just seems like some players will be unhappy regardless of whatever happens to the game. You add ships to a referral program, they'll want them on the C-Store. You add ships to the C-Store, they'll want them for free. You tell the players all the stuff you've given them for free, they'll complain about content. You add more content for free, they'll complain about the lack of stuff at Memory Alpha. And so on, ad nausium, ad infinitum.

Edit: To StormShade, I certainly don't envy your job as the disenfranchised find something else on which to gnaw upon, but I certainly do thank you for the courtesy of continually updating and communicating with the community, even of some responses are less than civil in return.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 43
07-15-2010, 08:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hafoc View Post
From another post he made, he gives the impression that we should also be thankful that they provided bug fixes, minor changes, etc for free.
Interesting aside: if you have a Cisco router that has a bug in the firmware, you'll have to pay for a firmware upgrade to fix it (either directly or through an annual support contract). How messed up is that? :p

Of course, in STO, our subscription rates go towards all of the "free" stuff, like bug fixes, servers that run 24/7 (maintenance downtime excluded), server bandwidth, server hardware support, customer support, GM support, community representation, official forums, and much of the development of the game. Besides, with Lifetime Subs only carrying so far revenue-wise, it's wise for Cryptic to have alternate sources of revenue for STO.

But to rebuttal the original topic, no, I wouldn't expect to pay for bug fixes on an MMO. However, as the OP is about two ships being added to the C-Store, I can also point out that ship models != bug fixes.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 44
07-15-2010, 08:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinRa_Actual View Post
I'll adjust the OP's comment, and resubmit it to you; We seem to have a "Charge-extra-for-any-canon-content" model being developed. The Star Trek fans being brought into this game aren't appreciating having to continually pay extra for the "Star Trek" part of Star Trek Online. Promoting the PVP tweaks and cost-of-life adjustments aren't what's going to impress and retain the Star Trek fanbase. Being able to play a /Star Trek/ game is.

These are ships that fans expected from a Star Trek game at launch. Instead, you chose to create your own variants and a slew of T5 skins.

At some point, Cryptic needs to decide whether this is Star Trek Online, or Generic Sci-Fi War online....with some middling Star Trek content availible in the C-store.
Thank you for clarifying my comment. I did not feel like hunting back for Stormy's reply and rebuking it. I think you actually did a much better job of expressing MY feelings than I did! Thank you

And p.s. Stormy: We still love ya!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 45
07-15-2010, 09:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miiru
Let's be completely clear about this: if they did not put these ships in the C-store, then you would not get them for free. You would simply not get them at all, since there would be no additional money to pay for their development.
Now, this will be the pot calling the kettle black (), and I fully admit it; but that staement is nothing but FANBOI nonsense...

Everquest 2
Star Wars: Galaxies
Guild Wars
Pirates of the Burning Sea
****
Ultima Online
EvE
and God forbid... Vanguard: SoH...

ALL have continued to survive without the NEED for supplemental development monies. While some of the above do have rmt available in them, the content provided is for FLAVOR, not what one would consider an integral part of the game. And don't even tell me that the Nebula and Excelsior are not integral, I don't drink Kool-Aid
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 46
07-15-2010, 09:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obsidius View Post
Snip.
it's not that we don't want the C-store. it's the fact that they are adding canon, and Iconic ships to the game that people asked and begged for before the game launched. then they gave us a poll to ask us "Which "Official" Starship class would you most like to see added? " meaning they were going to add a canon ship to the game. Now the excelsior won, and the nebula came in second. most people thought that since that were iconic ships they were going to be added to the game under the normal subs. well it turns out they were using the poll to find out which ship the trekkies wanted the most so they can charge them for it, and make the most profit.

well I'm mad about it because first they said nothing game changing will be added to the game unless you can earn it in the game. well they already broke that with the galaxy-x, none of the new ships have a phaser lance, and no matter what the weapon does stat wise it is still game changing, but I'm fine with that because I can still invite my friends in to the game, and by playing with them you can earn it for free.

problem with the excelsior ( not so much with the nebula ) is the fact that it does not have a class that it can join. ( meaning a class of ships in which they can swap out their part ) so it is most likely going to be a brand new ship. well the problem with a full ship is the fact that they are game changing, and they are expensive. if it's 10 bucks for a tier 1 cruiser, and 25 bucks for tier 5 cruiser with cloak, what do you think two normal tier 5 cruisers will cost? most likely between 15 and 20 dollars.

I want them to do one of two things.

1. give it our for free, and make skins of those ships to put in the C-store. ( use that talent they have, and make something new instead of profiting off of someone else's work )

or

2. Offer a way to get it in the game, and the C-store. ( but it has to be hard to earn it in the game )

also I understand they need the C-store money to help with making the game, but they also need the subscribers to be happy, and loyal. if we are not happy, and loyal we will leave. the game can't survive on life times, and C-store alone. it's the happy subscribers that keep the game going, and cryptic needs to learn they their biggest fans are the trekkies. putting iconic ships in the game's store is nothing but to get money out of those trekkies. Most those trekkies will not take this for ever, and if you lose those people, then you lose the game. the reason why I yell is so they learn from their past mistakes, and not make another mistake this time.

if you really want this game to survive then you would do the same. question everything the devs do with boldness, praise them when they earn praise, and scold them when they need to be scolded.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 47
07-15-2010, 10:03 AM
Quote:
it's not that we don't want the C-store. it's the fact that they are adding canon, and Iconic (...)
Which Star Trek ships aren't iconic? I think that varries with the individual. In my personal opinion, I don't find a Nebula very iconic at all, in the same way I wouldn't find the USS Yeager or a Maquis ship iconic. I think everyone has their own opinion about iconic ships.

That being said, I think your OP regarding using Merits in lieu of C-Store points has merit (no pun intended)... however, I find the argument of "iconic ships" paper-thin. After all, we already have plenty of iconic ships in-game pro bono. Connie refit, Defiant, Galaxy, Intrepid, Akira, etc., etc. Not to mention the Klingon faction ships.

Quote:
well I'm mad about it because first they said nothing game changing will be added to the game unless you can earn it in the game.
Do you have a dev quote for this? Besides, I think neither of these to ships are "game changing." I think the TR-116, phaser pod, or defense pods are more game changing than either of these two ships. And you can't earn any of those in-game (or even through the C-Store (yet) for that matter).

Quote:
if you really want this game to survive then you would do the same. question everything the devs do with boldness, praise them when they earn praise, and scold them when they need to be scolded.
I've never taken video games so seriously that I would need to create a mantra.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 48
07-15-2010, 11:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obsidius View Post
Which Star Trek ships aren't iconic? I think that varries with the individual. In my personal opinion, I don't find a Nebula very iconic at all, in the same way I wouldn't find the USS Yeager or a Maquis ship iconic. I think everyone has their own opinion about iconic ships.

That being said, I think your OP regarding using Merits in lieu of C-Store points has merit (no pun intended)... however, I find the argument of "iconic ships" paper-thin. After all, we already have plenty of iconic ships in-game pro bono. Connie refit, Defiant, Galaxy, Intrepid, Akira, etc., etc. Not to mention the Klingon faction ships.

.
I will agree Iconic is the wrong word, what I should use is canon ships. ships that have appeared in the shows, and movies. if any ship that is canon you run the risk of being iconic to someone or a group of people, and you can't say that the Excelsior is not Iconic to a lot of people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obsidius View Post

Do you have a dev quote for this? Besides, I think neither of these to ships are "game changing." I think the TR-116, phaser pod, or defense pods are more game changing than either of these two ships. And you can't earn any of those in-game (or even through the C-Store (yet) for that matter).

.
Yes I do, not from just a dev, but also from the COO, and CEO of Cryptic.
here you go:

COO Jack Emmert

Jack "Jackalope" Emmert took some time to clarify the hot-button issue of microtransactions in Star Trek Online. Given the fact that Champions Online will be receiving microtransactions, naturally, Star Trek Online fans are a bit nervous as well.

In a post on the official Star Trek Online forums, Mr. Emmert reassures us that like Champions Online, the microtransaction offerings will be mostly aesthetic in nature, and for the ones that do have a gameplay effect, they will also be attainable through in-game means.

Jack on micro:

* The vast majority are aesthetic items, such as costume pieces, action figures, emblems, etc.
* A very few are account-level management tools, such as being able to rename a character
* Micro-transactions should never limit your ability to enjoy the game or reach the level cap
* Any micro-transaction that has a game effect can also be earned in the game through play

Source 1
Source 2

From an interview with Craig Zinkievich ( ex executive producer) and Bill Roper ( CEO of cryptic )

When Cryptic launched their "C-Store" for Star Trek Online, many people were outraged. They felt that asking them to pay a subscription fee and then offering further products for sale on top of that fee was, at the very least, not in the spirit of MMORPGs.


Zinkievich and Roper answered the question by pointing out that they have a policy against putting items in the C-Store that requires players to buy them, with nothing required for advancement, and nothing that allows players to "play better," or, as Roper put it, the store is populated with "Nothing that's truly substantive."

I asked the pair about that statement, pointing out that the new races that were made available in the store do indeed come with Traits that are different from what is available for free. I was told that while the traits are certainly a part of the races, they are primarily there to add flavor to your racial choice, and that none of the races offered have "the best" traits, or are anything "better" than what is available for the original subscription fee. In the end, I was told, species traits end up being almost completely cosmetic.

I asked how the company justifies their C-Store and was told by Zinkievich that "if we didn't have that revenue from the C-Store, items in the C-Store wouldn't get made" and that the store allows items to be completed and made available to players more quickly.

SOURCE


End : fact if the item has game changing effects, ( and it is game changing if it has any effect tied to it. ) there has to be a way to get it in the game, or by other means. ( galaxy-x you can invite your friends and play with them so they stick around. if you did it right then you would of gotten it free. ) Problem with the excelsior as of right now there is only want way to get it, lucky for us there is still time for that to change, but if we keep silent then chances are it will only go to the C-store, and not have the ability to earn it in the game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obsidius View Post


I've never taken video games so seriously that I would need to create a mantra.
it's a play on Tomas Jefferson's "Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."

I feel that it applys to anything you care about, but someone else has control over it. ( in this case I question the devs actions in this game. )
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 49
07-15-2010, 12:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkStone View Post
ALL have continued to survive without the NEED for supplemental development monies.
Congratulations, you are the fourth person to have said this without reading the thread. You win a cookie.

STO would survive just fine without the C-store revenue. It would simply survive without having any of the C-store content available.

These are the choices: have the extra ship models in the C-store, or have the game as it stands without any C-store content. Losing the C-store wouldn't significantly limit the development of non-C-store content, and would not allow any of the C-store content to be created for free. Stop trying to pretend these things are what would happen.

Unsurprisingly, Cryptic think that using the C-store to create extra content is a good idea, since hey, extra content.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 50
07-15-2010, 12:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miiru
Congratulations, you are the fourth person to have said this without reading the thread. You win a cookie.

STO would survive just fine without the C-store revenue. It would simply survive without having any of the C-store content available.

These are the choices: have the extra ship models in the C-store, or have the game as it stands without any C-store content. Losing the C-store wouldn't significantly limit the development of non-C-store content, and would not allow any of the C-store content to be created for free. Stop trying to pretend these things are what would happen.

Unsurprisingly, Cryptic think that using the C-store to create extra content is a good idea, since hey, extra content.
LOL!!! I see we're back to the comedians again. I'll make it really simple for you. It's called supply and demand. Cryptic didn't supply any content, we demanded it, they listened. Now we're into stage 2 of our little transaction and someone on up high thinks that now that the natives are calm we'll start the cash machine running. Now, if you want to get caught up in it, fine. Have fun. But as long as I am still a paying customer, and yes, my sub fee counts for that, I will take my reservations and issues about the product and service to the management. Not all of us are willing to be spoonfed.

Here are the real choices:

1) Cryptic provides content that keeps the paying player base happy.

2) Demand that people pay extra for that content, thereby devaluing the original paid for product further, then you have unhappy players who tend not to be paying anymore. Then all you have left is yourself and the twenty people left on the server screaming bloody murder once they realize that everyone else isn't going to subsidize their game anymore.

What you are seeing here is not whining, moaning or anything else. It is a demonstartion of a consumer base letting a manufacturer/service provider know that they are unhappy with the value proposition being provided and giving them on opportunity to change the situation before the product/service is no longer worth purchasing.
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