Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 111
07-18-2010, 12:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Themagikz View Post
Surely then, they couldn't let such a long and developed discussion such as this couldn't go without response! Am I correct in this assumption?
It depends on how many threads can be deleted and how many of us aren't here in the morning.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 112
07-18-2010, 01:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeleys
the diffrence with all those games you have pointed out, is they dont have a big money-hungry company poking them with a stick constantly to get more money out of there players...
Not quite true. Blizzard is pretty money hungry.

The reason their in-game store doesn't offer items the same way Cryptic's does, is Blizzard's game is far too entrenched and in business with third party sellers. So they can't undercut the one thing that keeps their sub numbers so high.

Cryptic actively campaigns against third party sellers. Part of their motivation is ... The C-Store.

Ni Hao! U Buy Gold Yes? ... That's why Blizzard isn't offering you items that have an in-game impact. Or else they severly undercut those 10s of millions of subscribers they tout so loudly in their press releases.

Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 113
07-18-2010, 01:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deck_of_many_things
One mount and what 3 pets =/= the ******** going on in this game

And in EVE you can even pay for your play time with in game currency lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deck_of_many_things
other games (like WoW - yes, I realize theyve been here 5 years, mostly without an in games item cash shop but noone wants to see that of course).
you forgot about all the vaniity items in WoW that can only be achived by buying mass amounts of there card and/or miniature game. (also look up the price of some of these things and ebay)
See Blizzard has been nickle and diming people for a while. Also if the WoW card game didn't exsist those items most likely wouldn't have either, and if you don't want any of the card items just don't buy the cards, just like the c-store you don't want the items, don't buy them.
(And Wow's card game has been going on for atleast 3 years if not more.)

A [Tabard of Flame].
A [Hippogryph Hatchling], an in-game companion.
A [Riding Turtle], with normal run speed.
A [Picnic Basket], a usable item that sets up an umbrella and grill.
A gorilla, [Bananas], an in-game companion.
A fortune Telling [Imp in a Ball].
A [Goblin Gumbo Kettle].
A [Fishing Chair].
A [Spectral Tiger] mount (also available as an epic mount)
A [Robotic Homing Chicken], an in-game companion.
A [Paper Flying Machine Kit], a usable item similar to the [Heavy Leather Ball]
A [Dragon Kite] (Acts as a non-combat pet).
[Papa Hummel's Old-Fashioned Pet Biscuit], a consumable that increases the size of small pets.
A [Goblin Weather Machine - Prototype 01-B], a usable item that creates weather effects over the player.
The [X-51 Nether-Rocket], a flying mount (upgradable to the [X-51 Nether-Rocket X-TREME] when Riding skill reaches 300).
The [Path of Illidan], a consumable that provides a flame effect at a players feet.
A [D.I.S.C.O.], A disco ball that makes players near it dance and plays music.
A [Soul-Trader Beacon], a companion and seller.
The [Party G.R.E.N.A.D.E.], an item that causes those in range to dance with streamers and confetti for one minute.
A [The Flag of Ownership], a flag which impales downed enemy players or creatures. Also emotes "X has placed the flag of ownership in Ys corpse.
A [Big Battle Bear], a black bear mount similar to the Amani War Bear, without the troll-ish decorations and without bear goggles.
The [Sandbox Tiger], an item that places a rideable spectral tiger on a spring that can be ridden by any player
The [Epic Purple Shirt], this item is a purple shirt that will surely make you the Center of Attention (being the name of the card, Note: item name may be incorrect)
The [Foam Sword Rack], allows the player to place a foam sword rack on the ground, from which players can draw foam swords and battle each other
The [Path of Cenarius], a consumable that provides a flower effect at a players effect.
An [Ogre Pinata], A breakable Ogre head-shaped pinata that when killed, drops bubble gum.
The [Magic Rooster Egg], A giant rooster mount.
an ogre trinket
a firework trinket
and a shload of tabards
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 114
07-18-2010, 02:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoganWilliams
I can understand someone not liking the current C-store arrangement.

Now, on to WoW.

Quoted from Wikipedia: "Blizzard Entertainment announced World of ******** on September 2, 2001.[7] The game was released on November 23, 2004, on the 10th anniversary of the ******** franchise."

November 23, 2004, hmmmm so Blizzard has had 5 1/2 years to clear out bugs, add content, make expansions (which have sold for what, $50.00 U.S. per...$30.00, somewhere in between?), and generally polish a game to the product they have today?

Comparitively, STO has had roughly 5 months. less than 1/12 the time. Perhaps compare apples to apples?

I'm an EvE fan personally, yet I refuse to post "CCP has this and this and this in EvE, STO doesn't have that." for exactly the reason I cited above.

If you don't like the game, there's the wormhole. Don't let it close on your ass on the way through. Please feel free to go make "Internet is for porn", "Leroy Jenkins", or whatever fraps you choose to capture with your $15.00 monthly.

Do I think STO is perfect? No. Do I like the current C-store? No. Do I think there's going to be improvements over the next 5 years, while STO ages to WoW and EvE's current ages? That really goes without saying.
You make some good points. And those two games you name will always be the big brother and sister of STO. STO will always be behind those two, and as such it is like comparing apples to oranges, or mandarins or...well..you get the point.

When WoW released, it was garbage, it has come a long way and is getting a huge revamp in their next expansion. So, just wait. STO will one day be able to fill their own boots quite well I think. Cryptic seems to listen to us enough, and voice their awareness of things we don't like and things we want and do like. So, perhaps they will improve the C-Store in a way to our liking that will also meet their business model.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 115
07-18-2010, 03:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoganWilliams
I can understand someone not liking the current C-store arrangement.

Now, on to WoW.

Quoted from Wikipedia: "Blizzard Entertainment announced World of ******** on September 2, 2001.[7] The game was released on November 23, 2004, on the 10th anniversary of the ******** franchise."

November 23, 2004, hmmmm so Blizzard has had 5 1/2 years to clear out bugs, add content, make expansions (which have sold for what, $50.00 U.S. per...$30.00, somewhere in between?), and generally polish a game to the product they have today?

Comparitively, STO has had roughly 5 months. less than 1/12 the time. Perhaps compare apples to apples?

I'm an EvE fan personally, yet I refuse to post "CCP has this and this and this in EvE, STO doesn't have that." for exactly the reason I cited above.

If you don't like the game, there's the wormhole. Don't let it close on your ass on the way through. Please feel free to go make "Internet is for porn", "Leroy Jenkins", or whatever fraps you choose to capture with your $15.00 monthly.

Do I think STO is perfect? No. Do I like the current C-store? No. Do I think there's going to be improvements over the next 5 years, while STO ages to WoW and EvE's current ages? That really goes without saying.
Actually you don't cite Eve for the same reason as Wow. Cause was Eve a pos when it first came out sure. Did it get better over the years of course. Did they ever charge you anything asides from the monthly fee for improvements/updates much less expansions, no. That is where it clearly diverges from Sto though most mmos for that matter. Point at hand is that the C-store's essentially charging you for content on top of the standard fee that pretty much every single MMO with a p2p scheme offers for free.

All really comes down to why people play mmos, mainly for a persistent changing online experience. When you no longer have sufficient content to keep people's interests, people stop playing, that's a given for every single game. With the advent of some many bs things that could've and should've been given as updates being released onto the c-store these days, it does make people think twice that whether you can just play this game for $15 a month or is there going to be a lot greater cause in order to actually have a complete experience. The worth of the game isn't when you add up all the missing peices that are in the c-store, it's the base product itself. You can't claim to have a robust costumization options when 1/2 of those options are locked in the c-store nor an comphrehensive game when 1/2 the races are in the same position. Offering exclusives are fine and all but they're meant to be exclusives and not 1/2 of your gameplay experience.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 116
07-18-2010, 05:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Venatici
really? how would you know that? what we know is the STO team has limited staff on the pay roll... do you really believe they have spare dev, graphic designer, FX guy, programmers etc just working on filling up the C STORES? at best the C store team is composed of a few members of each team and they meet up once in a while to discuss which new items it would be good to add...

a proof would be Capt logan...who worked on the nebula/excelsior as well as some free in game contents...
and i would not be surprised the staff who worked on both in game bridges and sold in the C stores are the same persons...

I don t believe a second that the C store items would not be here if there was no revenue from it...why would they add something free in game when they can sell it as they know people want them.

they just pull away some people from the various core teams to work on C store items or just to fill in their work loads when the core job is done or delayed... i wonder why...

this remind me one of my good friend who always when talking about his business says
"no problem WE can do that in no time" while he s running a one man motorcycle shop... it s all about appearance...

if you have some sense of humour you might enjoy this

funny USS STO parody
The developers have been stressing that the C-store items are funded by the C-store alone and that if there was no C-store, the content would not be there. See Zinc's interview. Thinking that they're seperate teams is conjecture admittedly, but a logical conclusion. All C-store critisicm has been funneled into the C-store section of the forums for the C-store team to look at, mentioned many times by the various GMs. dStahl, the executive producer, has no control over the prices of the items put on the C-store, nor can he decide to add the ability to obtain the C-store items in-game arbitrarily. He stated that he had to push for it. This all says to me that the C-store team is a seperate team with it's own decision making process and developers.

You say CapnLogan worked on the Nebula and Excelsior. Where is this stated? The impression I got is that he was working on the other ships, he did not state that he was working on these. The Excelsior is, especially missing his touch. There are niggling details that do not seem absolutely right, which would not happen had CapnLogan designed the ship. Perhaps he had some input into the ship design but I doubt he was actually working on it.

We're getting lots of free stuff. Don't tell me a Galaxy w/ saucer sep, an Intrepid w/ ablative armor, a Defiant w/ cloak would not make tons of money were they added to the C-store? People would complain but people would still buy, yet we're getting all those as a free update. People were clamouring for ship interiors for ages and now they're coming out. Are they making us buy every deck? Or each piece of furniture to decorate our ready room?

They could've released the Klingon PvE and the diplomacy mechanic as Season 2 with all the other sundry bits added on as C-store purchases should they choose and if the two teams were really one, dividing content as they saw fit. Instead we're getting lots and lots of free stuff, with the option to buy a couple more. Why are we complaining?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 117
07-18-2010, 06:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by r2data View Post
The developers have been stressing that the C-store items are funded by the C-store alone and that if there was no C-store, the content would not be there. See Zinc's interview.
Aye, and if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon..."

Seriously, that argument is getting more tired by the day and no one is buying it. It is quite frankly BS. And put into proper perspective, if the content is not there, then soon there is no game. That's not an issue of whether we have paid enough, but whether that money is being spent wisely. Thinking that one has GOT TO be a slave to the cash shop to expect good content is silly, stupid and smacks of arrogance.

North Korea stressed for years that it had no intention of building a nuclear weapon either. Did you buy into that as well?

Cryptic is now having to face the fact that the content that people have allready paid for is still not there. and that we don't feel it is proper to charge us for it in the C-Store.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 118
07-18-2010, 06:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkStone View Post
Aye, and if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon..."

Seriously, that argument is getting more tired by the day and no one is buying it. It is quite frankly BS. And put into proper perspective, if the content is not there, then soon there is no game. That's not an issue of whether we have paid enough, but whether that money is being spent wisely. Thinking that one has GOT TO be a slave to the cash shop to expect good content is silly, stupid and smacks of arrogance.

North Korea stressed for years that it had no intention of building a nuclear weapon either. Did you buy into that as well?

Cryptic is now having to face the fact that the content that people have allready paid for is still not there. and that we don't feel it is proper to charge us for it in the C-Store.
That's the point. The content is there or is being put in. We got that when we bought the game and we're getting the content our subscriptions paid for in the Season updates. We get plenty of that. What they're offering, not asking us or making us pay for, is a couple of extra bits that an additional team have taken the time to make. It isn't going to affect your game if you don't buy it but if you want it, it's there for you. The game is stil the game. We're still playing the whole game. There's no difference if you were to do it from a Nebula or a Galaxy.

The problem here is that people seem to think that when they pay once for something they're entitled to everything without stopping to consider the other party or any of the other factors. I'm not saying we haven't paid, but I'm not the one saying that we haven't got anything from them either. We've got it and we're still getting it, paying as we would normally. These are extras. The sports rims and spoilers on a car. Is it less of a car if these accoutrements were not there? It makes for a flashier car yes, but does it actually do anything? Do you demand that the dealers add them in for free when you buy a basic car model?

One does NOT have to be a slave to the Cash Shop.That is the choice you have. The choice your money affords you. Don't buy it if you don't want to pay for it or can't afford it. That is perfectly alright I'm sure. It's an offer, not a mandate. If they don't get the numbers they want that will pay for it, they may think of something else, but personally, I would tend to reward the effort they've taken in producing what I want by buying it. That does not mean to say that I'm a slave to the Cash Shop. I don't blindly buy everything that's on the shop. I buy what is there that I would like and if I don't like it, I don't buy it. I don't have to have it to make my STO experience better.

The Nebula and Excelsior may have been shown many times on screen. One can argue that they're part of Star Trek, but are they essential? Do you say that the game will not be Star Trek if they were not in, same as people would say about the Galaxy or the Intrepid? If this were so, why did you buy the game, knowing that the Excelsior and Nebula were not in it initially? There were no promises to add them in somewhere down the line. I was looking forward to the Nebula. No one said anything about them when they did not show up, so I resigned myself to not having it in. Now, out of the blue, it shows up because people are willing to pay for it. And that's fine to me. Better than not having it at all, or waiting until Season 20 before it gets added as a low priority update that would probably look worse than it does now.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 119
07-18-2010, 06:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by r2data View Post
That's the point. The content is there or is being put in. We got that when we bought the game and we're getting the content our subscriptions paid for in the Season updates. We get plenty of that. What they're offering, not asking us or making us pay for, is a couple of extra bits that an additional team have taken the time to make. It isn't going to affect your game if you don't buy it but if you want it, it's there for you. The game is stil the game. We're still playing the whole game. There's no difference if you were to do it from a Nebula or a Galaxy.

The problem here is that people seem to think that when they pay once for something they're entitled to everything without stopping to consider the other party or any of the other factors. I'm not saying we haven't paid, but I'm not the one saying that we haven't got anything from them either. We've got it and we're still getting it, paying as we would normally. These are extras. The sports rims and spoilers on a car. Is it less of a car if these accoutrements were not there? It makes for a flashier car yes, but does it actually do anything? Do you demand that the dealers add them in for free when you buy a basic car model?

The Nebula and Excelsior may have been shown many times on screen. One can argue that they're part of Star Trek, but are they essential? Do you say that the game will not be Star Trek if they were not in, same as people would say about the Galaxy or the Intrepid? If this were so, why did you buy the game, knowing that the Excelsior and Nebula were not in it initially? There were no promises to add them in somewhere down the line. I was looking forward to the Nebula. No one said anything about them when they did not show up, so I resigned myself to not having it in. Now, out of the blue, it shows up because people are willing to pay for it. And that's fine to me. Better than not having it at all, or waiting until Season 20 before it gets added as a low priority update that would probably look worse than it does now.
Without resorting to writng a small novel, I will say this sir:

You present a compelling argument right there and I applaud you for it. It however does not adjust my opinion on the matter. The transactions that I have had for years as a customer of MMO developers have leed me to a conclusion totally opposite of your point. While you make your point well, I sadly still do not see the value proposition being in my favor in this regard, therefore it endangers my ability to continue to do business with them. I however don't want that to happen, so I have chosen this venue to express my dis-satisfaction to management and see if they are willing to relent, repent and prove that they are willing to give value. I am one who is not ready to resign myself to having paid for what I feel is an incomplete game. If you are happy with the current situation, them I am happy that they are satisfying someone. For this I am pleased. However, I would think that you would find it to even be in your best interest to continue to have more happy customers continuing to grow the community and make it thrive rather than go somewhere else.

That said, I have to respectfully disagree with you sir.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 120
07-19-2010, 02:43 AM
I just don't really buy the argument that the C Store gives people a significant advantage over other players. Some ships have been added for free (no one seems to remember the K'Tanco battle cruiser given for free to Klingons, to say nothing of the three Tier 5 retrofits that will be added for Federation Vice Admirals) -- there are only two (2) ships at present that can be bought on the C Store: the TOS Constitution-class and the Galaxy-X. The former is a Tier 1 ship and no one would likely use it after the first week or two of gameplay except for aesthetics. The latter is *also available for free* if you take part in the Referral Program.

As for the races, there's Ferengi, Klingon, Tellarite, Pakled, Caitian, Rigelian, Joined Trill, and Liberated Borg that have been added (the latter two for Klingon players as well). However, none of these are necessary as there are several choices. Federation has 9 (Human, Vulcan, Bajoran, Bolian, Benzite, Betazoid, Andorian, Saurian, alien) and Klingons have 6 (Klingon, Orion, Gorn, Nausicaan, Lethean, alien) at *no cost* to you, the subscriber.

Most of the C Store are bridges, emotes, costumes (Wrath of Khan is free too), and ship costumes -- all of which are just cosmetic. In fact, of the 44 items listed on the C Store page, 57% fall into these categories (playable races are another 20%).

All that leaves are pets (the targ is cosmetic, the Rivera tribble is admitedly useful) and services. The retrain token can also be obtained in-game, leaving only captain rename, character slots, BOff slots, and ship slots as something that costs money. These are things that could be useful, but are definitely not required.

In summary, while I think the C Store runs a bit expensive, the sense that it gives players with money any substantial advantage is not substantiated.
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