Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
07-19-2010, 09:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darksided View Post
You really think Klingons want this? Name one.
Bob the Yak says he likes it

Quote:
Come on Superchum, for once don't troll a thread I write.
I just find it odd that this organized "call to arms" is going to ignore the one change that is going to have the biggest impact on the Klingon side of things.

So while your post is talking about the psychological affects of content imbalance ... the devs are fast making a change to PVP maps that is going to have a much larger impact on the KDF's immediate gameplay experience.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
07-19-2010, 09:26 AM
Lots of interesting thoughts in the original post. Interesting to think of the Klingons as the team-oriented playstyle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darksided View Post
1) Klingons are not looking for equal content, they are looking for equal treatment by Cryptic.
It may help to consider you're NEVER going to get "equal treatment"... nor should you. You (as a category of player/customers) are, at best, going to get proportional treatment. If I take your statements at face value, there aren't a lot of "daily Klingons".

At the moment, it looks to Cryptic like the Federation style of content is more successful at entertaining the largest percentage of their customers. So they are pushing Klingon play to be more like that model to entice the majority, rather than to serve the minority.

I'm not sure how you could bring more attention to your cause, because unless the Devs see serving the current Klingon model as a way of retaining/acquiring players not attracted to the Federation game, its going to become more and more hemogenous with the main Federation-style experience.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
07-19-2010, 09:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NikeOnline View Post
It may help to consider you're NEVER going to get "equal treatment"... nor should you. You (as a category of player/customers) are, at best, going to get proportional treatment. If I take your statements at face value, there aren't a lot of "daily Klingons".
Equal treatment would include actually talking to every day Klingons. It has been months since Cryptic visited Klingon forums, for example, to get the opinion of Klingons regarding the Season 2 update which was supposed to be for Klingons.

Just treat Klingons fairly by communicating with the community the same was they do with the Federation. Content equality is never a reason Klingons leave the game - the fact that our concerns, bug reports, and opinions are not represented or addressed is a much bigger issue.

For example - Cannon Scatter Volley has been broken since Season 1.2 update, and will not be addressed until Season 2 goes live. Since PvP is virtually all there is to do as a Klingon in Season 1.2, Cryptic shrugged off a huge bug instead of addressing it - even though it has a huge impact on Klingon gameplay.

When was the last time a major bug influence Fed gameplay for any extended period of time - like the entire time between major updates. I'm sure you wouldn't care... but the history of this forum suggests the outrage would drown out every other issue.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
07-19-2010, 09:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NikeOnline View Post
Lots of interesting thoughts in the original post. Interesting to think of the Klingons as the team-oriented playstyle.



It may help to consider you're NEVER going to get "equal treatment"... nor should you. You (as a category of player/customers) are, at best, going to get proportional treatment. If I take your statements at face value, there aren't a lot of "daily Klingons".

At the moment, it looks to Cryptic like the Federation style of content is more successful at entertaining the largest percentage of their customers. So they are pushing Klingon play to be more like that model to entice the majority, rather than to serve the minority.

I'm not sure how you could bring more attention to your cause, because unless the Devs see serving the current Klingon model as a way of retaining/acquiring players not attracted to the Federation game, its going to become more and more hemogenous with the main Federation-style experience.
As much as I like the OP's thoughts, I have to agree with this one also. Proportional treatment is more like what the Klingons will get, and as I've said in other posts, I believe the Klingon side should be fleshed out more, but I think getting an identical set of missions/story line would really do them an injustice. Make the Klingon story more internal to the Klingon side of things and then overlap with the Federation side where it advances the story line and the Klingons could be a viable faction to play for the long term.

Being strictly pvp is limiting to them and also limits their interactions with the Fed side. And I can see where that could definitely be improved, how is the harder question to answer,
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
07-19-2010, 09:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The.Grand.Nagus View Post
Sorry, but that argument just doesnt work. What makes each faction different and unique is their STORY, not whether they PvE or PvP. The things you just mentioned(exploration, combat, "sneakiness") are STORY elements, not gameplay mechanics. And besides, going by your logic what would the Roms be? Feds are ALREADY PvE and PvP, while Klingons are pretty much only PvP. If those are the only two equations your working with, the Roms would have to be like one or the other of the already existing factions when it comes to PvE and PvP. Saying that one faction is just a "PvP faction" is just a lame excuse to not have to make as content for them as another faction.
So the game is only about story? As someone part of an entire faction community that has played STO from release without a storyline, it would appear your "story" theory is completely contrary to all available evidence at hand to date.

The style of play was determined by Cryptic when they decided to create a community without a story, and drive playstyle towards teamwork and competition in order to level. There are plenty of ways to create content that support competition and teamwork without making it a PvP queue map - and indeed many of those ways could be PvE in nature.

As for PvP and PvE, those are the only equations you are working with. My point is Cryptic needs a new equations if they want to appeal to the player community in the Klingon Empire - because as feedback from Season 2 is demonstrating, the same equation approach with quasi competitive storyline PvE content to the Klingon faction has basically alienated what Klingons are left.

I read the post you made the other day about Klingons Grand.Nagus, and even saw you had a Dev response within. I posted about it on the Klingon forum, and based on the feedback I have got from my post on your post - most Klingons who actually play think your opinions are bad for our faction, don't represent most Klingons, represent the insights of a Fed who has a Klingon alt, and in general highlights the perception problem among Klingon players that an opinion like yours regarding Klingon gameplay gets a Dev response while everday Klingons are ignored by Devs regarding Klingon specific issues and feedback.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
07-19-2010, 09:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by superchum View Post
I just find it odd that this organized "call to arms" is going to ignore the one change that is going to have the biggest impact on the Klingon side of things.

So while your post is talking about the psychological affects of content imbalance ... the devs are fast making a change to PVP maps that is going to have a much larger impact on the KDF's immediate gameplay experience.
/facepalm

Yes, because what Klingons have been calling for is a change to a PvP map so that matches will be even longer, making it even harder to level. Come on Superchum, no devs have responded to that change on Tribble, we have no idea why it happened, and since we know the change to 40 kills all but killed ground PvP queues - we have good evidence regarding what impact that change would have on game play on Halodeck.

That is not a Klingon specific issue either - it will impact Feds even more, considering FvF is much more active PvP than any KvK or FvK is right now. PvP issues directly impact Klingons, no doubt, but that isn't a Klingon specific change - all factual evidence contradicts such an implication.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
07-19-2010, 09:52 AM
I think the new klingon pve content is a great start to improving faction, it's a small step to inreasing KDF content.

We still need alot more pve storylinge missions to improve player interest.

I no longer see pvp as being an important reason for playing KDF chars as there is no longer any uniqueness to it, the new fed ships have same slots/weapons/cloak/skills as the KDF ships with exception of bop which is extremely weak if battle becomes prolonged. The new carrier i see as a pointless ship to use due to having nearly zero turning ability and the single skul fighter bay is of very little use in pvp.

As game stands i've lost interest in the pvp aspect of klingon faction so extra pve missions is a must in my opinion to keep an interest in game and to improve faction population.


Cha'sak - KDF tac
Angelus - KDF sci
Gizmo - KDF eng
Whisp - Fed eng
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
07-19-2010, 09:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NikeOnline View Post
At the moment, it looks to Cryptic like the Federation style of content is more successful at entertaining the largest percentage of their customers. So they are pushing Klingon play to be more like that model to entice the majority, rather than to serve the minority.
One more thought on this.

The players of the Klingon Empire are secondary citizens of Star Trek Online because they are treated as secondary citizens by Crypitc. For months Cryptic would promise how Season 2 was to be dedicated to helping Klingon players - and this hype was designed and intended to be for the existing Klingon playerbase. Well, Season 2 is here, and we got shafted. We get a small number of new PvE missions - which I will concede are fantastic efforts (particularly visually) - but existing Klingons never asked for this. We also got a new ship. Everything else we get is shared content. The Federation on the other hand gets an entire new tree of missions and rewards for diplomacy. The Federation also gets 3-5 new ships. They also get the shared content. It is impossible to call Season 2 a Klingon patch, not when we are getting a few bones from the cow while the Feds are chowing on new Tenderloins.

Klingon players have been calling for new ships and have been highlighting the existing BOFF issues with our current ships. We have been delivered a new ship - a Galactic Garbage Carrier. The Federation not only gets three new ships, but they are all of iconic design and come with new special abilities. To add insult to injury, the new ships are first given incredibly overpowered BOFFs, then reduced to have the same BOFF configuration of existing Klingon ships. AND NOW, only after the Feds have this new specialized BOFF configuration that Klingons have always been frustrated about, the complaints Klingons have had since release regarding BOFF specialization are being heard - because Feds are unhappy with it?

We are second class citizen when we have to make our problems the same as a Federation player in order to get any attention to our problems.

When Cryptic responds to Klingon issues that are clearly only problems to Federation players building alt characters - instead of listening to existing daily Klingon playerbase - Cryptic is establishing the social contract that existing Klingon players are second class.

We are exactly what we have been made to be. Proportional treatment indeed.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
07-19-2010, 09:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darksided View Post
Equal treatment would include actually talking to every day Klingons. It has been months since Cryptic visited Klingon forums, for example, to get the opinion of Klingons regarding the Season 2 update which was supposed to be for Klingons.

Just treat Klingons fairly by communicating with the community the same was they do with the Federation. Content equality is never a reason Klingons leave the game - the fact that our concerns, bug reports, and opinions are not represented or addressed is a much bigger issue.
So, one thing you are looking for is a few more posts in that forum? Not an excessive request in my mind. But the Feddies will tell you that dev communication is pretty erratic (and sometimes entirly meaningless when compared with what actually happens in game), so don't think that just getting a pat on the head with a few posts will automatically mean anything where the rubber meets the road .

Quote:
For example - Cannon Scatter Volley has been broken since Season 1.2 update, and will not be addressed until Season 2 goes live. Since PvP is virtually all there is to do as a Klingon in Season 1.2, Cryptic shrugged off a huge bug instead of addressing it - even though it has a huge impact on Klingon gameplay.
I'm not really sure how they prioritize their bug database. All kinds of oddities seem to slip through for months at a time. I wouldn't say Klingons are being singled out... But if things are being dealt with proportionately to the people engaged in using those things, then PvP being sort of low on the totem pole makes sense.

They need to make progress on lots of fronts. Hopefully they can allocate some time to your front, becuse it seems like a way some folks are having a good time, and it may be being neglected more than is fair to those customers.

Quote:
When was the last time a major bug influence Fed gameplay for any extended period of time - like the entire time between major updates. I'm sure you wouldn't care... but the history of this forum suggests the outrage would drown out every other issue.
Hmm. I thought my Mirror Universe uniforms not being available for months after launch was a pretty severe bug . I let my subscription lapse after the first month until they fixed it. I doubt losing my $15-$30 was a big spur to them to fix it, but they did fix it eventually, and started getting my money again (from time to time) as a result.

Other than that I've manged to dodge or scootch around what bugs I knew about.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
07-19-2010, 10:01 AM
I agree with Suricata's post more than the OP's. But of course I do feel Cryptic has been neglecting the Klingon side for a long time, and continues to neglect them while throwing them a bone now and then to keep up appearances. But the same could be said about the entirety of STO after launch.

At any rate, my opinion on what you stated, OP...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darksided View Post
1) Klingons are not looking for equal content, they are looking for equal treatment by Cryptic.
I agree in that I feel Cryptic should give equal "treatment" instead of equal "content". But when you say "Klingons", you're incorrectly lumping everyone else into our opinion, which isn't fair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darksided View Post
2) There is a bit of psychology here. Since release the Klingon faction has a community that knows a unique playstyle from the Federation. Klingon players require teamwork to level, because without other players PvP matches take forever or are miserable. (...) This style of gameplay is all most Fed players know, so those Feds don't see how this would impact a community that plays Klingon because they are used to a different playstyle.
I disagree to a point. STO's gameplay mechanics is the same for both sides. Sure, each side uses different strategy and tactics in PvP since the ships are different, but the mechanics are all the same. It's still the same game. And if the PvE content was there, your day-to-day Klingon gameplay could be almost identical to the Fed side.

Your first point was much more valid since we're talking about needing the same level of commitment to fleshing out the Klingons instead of just copying and pasting all of the code and resources to add to Klingon PvE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darksided View Post
3) Which leads to the next point. Klingons want content that is unique and distinct from Federation gameplay.
I agree 100%. However...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darksided View Post
I don't believe Fed style PvE content for Klingons will be good for the game long term. By making each faction have a unique game style of play, it opens up Romulans to being sneaky, Feds being explorers, Klingons being warriors, etc... Instead of everyone the same with a different skin.
You're trying to merge the topic of faction-specific development with the motivation of "unique" gameplay style. That's a very weak tie-in and why others are arguing with you. Your motive is genuine and some of what you want (more attention/development on the Klingon side) is also what I want, but your reasoning for that is debatable.
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