Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
07-19-2010, 08:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruis.In View Post
Ask yourself would sto do better with 1 million people, probably paying 5 dollars average a month on c store items?

or 50k people paying 15 dollars a month?
I think it would be far higher for a lot of people personally. I mean just look at most of the items in the C-Store now they are already out of site over 5 dollars. I mean the Galaxy X alone cost 25. Can you imagine if they had to get all their money from it how bad it would be, they already waste so much time on just the C-Store. I have yet to play a F2P game that I like not saying there are not good ones out there. However in free to play whoever has the most money has the best game, the most items, and the easiest leveling. I there for divides the player base into the rich who have the real game and pay far more per month than a regular sub and the rest of us who have to have a sub-par game. I would actually rather see them kill the C-Store and raise the monthly sub so that every one can play on the same level and same game.In Lineage 2 for example every one could play on a equal footing and get any thing they wanted with hard work .
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
07-19-2010, 08:26 PM
If they do something like that. I'll just count my money wasted and move on. Some of the moves the company in charge does just don't make sense to me. If I sell a product, I'd want to deliver as much as possible as cheaply as possible. Not as cheap as possible just to say my stuff rivals the numbers of someone else. I'm glad there aren't millions playing STO, we'd have forums as bad as WoW's if that happened.

The game needs to grow, not pander to grab money. Look at how the handling of the C-store drives people away, thats all wed have to depend on if STO was F2P, and many just don't believe in it.

Btw, I know there many european and australian players, but the fact of the matter is, the number of potential customers in america outstrips your homelands, and many americans just see a waste of time in the F2P model.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
07-19-2010, 08:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavilier210 View Post
If they do something like that. I'll just count my money wasted and move on. Some of the moves the company in charge does just don't make sense to me. If I sell a product, I'd want to deliver as much as possible as cheaply as possible. Not as cheap as possible just to say my stuff rivals the numbers of someone else. I'm glad there aren't millions playing STO, we'd have forums as bad as WoW's if that happened.

The game needs to grow, not pander to grab money. Look at how the handling of the C-store drives people away, thats all wed have to depend on if STO was F2P, and many just don't believe in it.

Btw, I know there many european and australian players, but the fact of the matter is, the number of potential customers in america outstrips your homelands, and many americans just see a waste of time in the F2P model.
Many Americans have made the hybrid model DDO uses a success (in fact, DDO's EU server were or still are subscription only). In fact, judging by DDO voice chat data - I'd say there must be a lot of American expatriates in order for this not to be a success with American audiences.

I could be wrong: it's just the data made available conforms to my anecdotal evidence.

Research: there's a wide body of evidence that completely contradicts your prejudices. I suggest looking at it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
07-19-2010, 08:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruis.In View Post
Ask yourself would sto do better with 1 million people, probably paying 5 dollars average a month on c store items?

or 50k people paying 15 dollars a month?
Free to play never, ever ends up cheaper than a monthly sub. It always ends up costing you several hundred dollars more per year to get the same gameplay experience you wouls from a standard sub. It also always comes to pass that in f2p models those who are rich ended having all the fun.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
07-19-2010, 08:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren_Kitlor
Just like DDO and LOTRO?

I wish people would research what the market is actually like instead of making up stuff to conform to their beliefs.

As some who has played DDO (both before and after the F2P/P2P hybrid) and done some beta-testing with the Hybrid Model LOTRO, I can safely say cavilier really hasn't researched this thoroughly.

In DDO's case, the game has increased in user-base, revenue stream, content development, player retention, player resubscription, etc. You can look at the data: it just adds up for them. It's been a win all-around.

That's the model being considered (a hybrid of subscriptions and F2P-item mall). So far, that model seems to be doing the opposite to being forgotten.
Just to let you in on my secret. I don't research. I say something and if it's far enough off the mark from what someone believes, or the facts, someone will inevevitably either prove me wrong, or prove me right. They do the research.

Anything that affects the game effects the players, thats undebatable. It's the effects that are debatable.

Like you said, those games are hybrid models, and aren't free 2 play. If a game is actually free 2 play, then you cause a lot of problems and many people don't play. I don't touch a game that says free 2 play. I'm sure theres hundreds, but every single one of the 5 i've taken the time to try have sucked beyond belief. No, I don't remember their names because they aren't worth the time.

I don't see titles of threads saying "Lets go Hybrid model like LotRO because thats an awesome idea", I actually see a lot of "STO should be free2play, it'll get more players". I don't support either, but I'm not gonna budge on F2P.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
07-19-2010, 08:39 PM
To be fair, DDO was largely packed with idiots before the move to F2P, so the change couldn't have made things that much worse.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
07-19-2010, 08:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavilier210 View Post
Just to let you in on my secret. I don't research. I say something and if it's far enough off the mark from what someone believes, or the facts, someone will inevevitably either prove me wrong, or prove me right. They do the research.

Anything that affects the game effects the players, thats undebatable. It's the effects that are debatable.

Like you said, those games are hybrid models, and aren't free 2 play. If a game is actually free 2 play, then you cause a lot of problems and many people don't play. I don't touch a game that says free 2 play. I'm sure theres hundreds, but every single one of the 5 i've taken the time to try have sucked beyond belief. No, I don't remember their names because they aren't worth the time.

I don't see titles of threads saying "Lets go Hybrid model like LotRO because thats an awesome idea", I actually see a lot of "STO should be free2play, it'll get more players". I don't support either, but I'm not gonna budge on F2P.
Theere's a lot of misconceptions from players as to what business models the developers of Star Trek ONline are actually considering.

A pure F2P item mall is not it (I'm assuming this is what people seem to think).

On the contrary, Cryptic seems to be monitoring the hybrid model that has made DDO (and potentially LOTRO) late-term successes. Colloquially, I think many players mean the hybrid DDO model when they refer to F2P (especially since Turbine refers to DDO as F2P, despite having a subscription model too). It's by far one of the most financially successful and popular of the F2P combos out there.

DDO has had some amazing updates since it went F2P - including a guild system so deep and rewarding that I'm surprised no developer has brought up those design choices to make Fleets more engaging.

Anyways, the point being that F2P/P2P hybrids do work.

Also, I hope you'd recant that opinion that you're glad STO doesn't have millions of subscribers. I think that would be awesome for the game.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
07-19-2010, 08:43 PM
Some of what I wrote was answered by darren and I thought better of this.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
07-19-2010, 08:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren_Kitlor
Theere's a lot of misconceptions from players as to what business models the developers of Star Trek ONline are actually considering.

A pure F2P item mall is not it (I'm assuming this is what people seem to think).

On the contrary, Cryptic seems to be monitoring the hybrid model that has made DDO (and potentially LOTRO) late-term successes. Colloquially, I think many players mean the hybrid DDO model when they refer to F2P (especially since Turbine refers to DDO as F2P, despite having a subscription model too). It's by far one of the most financially successful and popular of the F2P combos out there.

DDO has had some amazing updates since it went F2P - including a guild system so deep and rewarding that I'm surprised no developer has brought up those design choices to make Fleets more engaging.

Anyways, the point being that F2P/P2P hybrids do work.

Also, I hope you'd recant that opinion that you're glad STO doesn't have millions of subscribers. I think that would be awesome for the game.
I can get onboard the hybrid model, I can't get onboard the free 2 play one, because as many have said it creates player classes divided by monetary means. Splitting your players into RL social classes doesn't sound good IMO. At the moment the C-store is for the most part cosmetic. I debate on the Gal-X until the new ships come out, then it becomes moot.

Millions of players would bring in lots of money for development, true, but I don't want the WoW forums in all their horror. I like our forums, even though we rage. I'm sure thats understandable. It's hard to feel like you have a say, when your drowned out by the trolls. I, like many, can't take our money elsewhere and use that as our say, so we come to the forums. I'd hate to see a dedicated lifer forum because there are many great non-lifer players. Just my opinion.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
07-19-2010, 08:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavilier210 View Post
aww, but I like my prejudices

ok, so, what exactly does your data provide? Does it have number of accounts? Does it have number of seperate people playing? Does it show the numbers in certain geographical areas both before and after the change?

Whats the quality of that game (since we're on DDO)? How often do they update it with new content? How large is the team that runs it?
I'll have to dig up the PDF from Paiz's (Turbine exec) keynote address on switching to F2P/P2P hybrid. It's quite astounding as to how many players they've reclaimed and the triple digit growth they've experienced. In terms of profits, F2P actually earns them more than P2P (ironic, isn't it?).

Funnily enough, other industries have Free/Pay hybrid models. Nine Inch Nails released a 4-disc album (1st disc was free, you could buy the whole thing for under 5 dollars) and released a deluxe version for those that wanted. Millions downloaded the free album off Amazon.com and the limited, super-deluxe edition made a cool million (USD). The kicker? The four-disc album featured no lyrics - it was all instrumental/ambient work (like a film score).

It's an interesting approach: though market considerations are quite different in the music industry than the video game industry.

DDO's quality is quite high (now) compared to many P2P options (and especially compared to DDO before the switch).

They've had five major updates since going F2P/P2P hybrid.

Let's take a look at one component of one of those updates:
That's just apart of Update 5 - which also included new missions, QoL fixes, and new feats/options for classes.

What's intriguing is that DDO is as heavily instanced as STO (perhaps more so due to the wide range of difficulty settings spawning different instances).

It's intriguing and I'm sure Cryptic is watching these changes like the rest of the industry is.

(It's a shame games like Vanguard won't be getting this treatment - SOE just laid off the rest of the development team there).
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