Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 101
01-18-2012, 10:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumerboy View Post
Yes, I use the bridge to gauge some ships as well. That said, the exterior DS9 Ops dome, (which in the show is clearly only slightly larger than the actual ops interior we see, as evidenced by the ring of windows at the top) is the size of my Miranda's whole saucer section. Clearly not right.
Mind posting a screen of your comparison basis... Not that I doubt what you are saying, I just can't quite create a picture of it in my head.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 102
01-18-2012, 10:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonCapitan
Wouldn't the DS9 Technical Manual have the exact specs of the Defiant?
Those manuals are neither reliable nor canon. Following them would force quite a bit of deviation from the shows, in part because the episode directors and writers ignored, disagreed with, and sometimes deliberately contradicted the manuals as plot points.

They are the designer's perspective. Official but not authoratative and in some cases irreconcilable with storylines.

Things like how many decks are on the ship classes is not set in stone, even with deck charts existing for all of them.

I recall seeing a thing on how the Defiant schematics have landing gear for it. One of the lead producers said, basically, no one told him, it wasn't his job to study the tech schematics, the writers were not expected to adhere to or study the schematics, and he would have vetoed the idea and forced a redesign if he'd even noticed it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 103
01-18-2012, 10:47 PM
Tumerboy, hopefully you're already aware of this, but just in case you aren't: The DS9 model appears in several missions as well as the social map. There is also its twin Empok Nor which for all I know uses the same model. Some of these missions have the player taking out weapon placements on the station. Just wanted to make sure you didn't make a change to the size of the model and discover that it broke half a dozen missions.

In the end, you'll just have to use your best judgement as to what scale looks best in most situations. You seem to have a grasp on the intricacies of the problem, so I trust your judgement. Good scaling.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 104
01-18-2012, 10:53 PM
If you space out the ship spawn points above, below and around the general perimeter of the station, and not all just above it like it is currently, then you can afford to make DS9 smaller than it is now. How much smaller though is really up to the dev team.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 105
01-18-2012, 10:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexsam View Post
There is a fairly easy way to gauge the size of the Defiant. Since canon is so inconsistent, it should be approached the Vulcan way; with logic.

The defiant is about four decks tall. If we assumed each deck is about three meters tall, then the ship as a whole is about twelve meters tall before factoring in hull thickness. We'll say another meter top and bottom (what with all that armor). If the ship is fourteen meters tall with decks and hull and everything, we can use that to estimate its length.

Visual aid

If we're assuming 14m, the Defiant is approx. 97m long. (98 - appox. 1 as indicated by red line)

If we're assuming 12m, it's about 83m long. (84 - approx. 1 as indicated by red line)

Since it's an estimation and I didn't take into account space between the floors for all the power conduits and stuff, I'd say it's safer to guess high. In which case, the Defiant measures something on the order of 100 meters long.


Logical.
Logical indeed...
Except 3.5 meters height would make much better sense as shown here http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/sc...-okudagram.jpg
You can see the people on board.

Oh and you forgot Deck 5...
The deck layout is from the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Technical Manual and is largely consistent with the master systems display seen many times on-screen. In addition, three references were made to a "deck 5" during the fourth season: "The Way of the Warrior", "Rejoined" and "To the Death". The first two citations were in reference to hull breaches; the third citation had Captain Sisko traveling to "Deck 5, Section 1" via turbolift.

Ex Astris Scientia even made a reference to the problem.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 106
01-18-2012, 10:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexsam View Post
There is a fairly easy way to gauge the size of the Defiant. Since canon is so inconsistent, it should be approached the Vulcan way; with logic.

The defiant is about four decks tall. If we assumed each deck is about three meters tall, then the ship as a whole is about twelve meters tall before factoring in hull thickness. We'll say another meter top and bottom (what with all that armor). If the ship is fourteen meters tall with decks and hull and everything, we can use that to estimate its length.

Visual aid

If we're assuming 14m, the Defiant is approx. 97m long. (98 - appox. 1 as indicated by red line)

If we're assuming 12m, it's about 83m long. (84 - approx. 1 as indicated by red line)

Since it's an estimation and I didn't take into account space between the floors for all the power conduits and stuff, I'd say it's safer to guess high. In which case, the Defiant measures something on the order of 100 meters long.


Logical.
If you want some more fun scale stuff... the interior of our in-game 'Sovereign' style bridges* are approximately 41m across (~135 feet!) both lengthwise and widthwise, and what appears to be about 10-15m high (I would guess about 40 feet from bottom level to ceiling dome)... imagine the space that would take up inside a "scale" Defiant!



* Sovereign bridges: Alliance, Diplomat, Star Explorer, Ceremonial, San Francisco, Zimmerman, Eaves
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 107
01-18-2012, 10:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by greendragoon View Post
Tumerboy, hopefully you're already aware of this, but just in case you aren't: The DS9 model appears in several missions as well as the social map. There is also its twin Empok Nor which for all I know uses the same model. Some of these missions have the player taking out weapon placements on the station. Just wanted to make sure you didn't make a change to the size of the model and discover that it broke half a dozen missions.

In the end, you'll just have to use your best judgement as to what scale looks best in most situations. You seem to have a grasp on the intricacies of the problem, so I trust your judgement. Good scaling.
This is exactly why we don't act rashly when a problem like this pops up. Many people point out many problems that are totally valid, but we can't necessarily just hop in tweak that one thing, and make it all better. 90%+ of the time, there is a cascade of changes that would either happen because of the change, or NEED to happen because of the change.

Like I said before, this is all just exploratory, not a promise of any future changes. The scale does bug me, but if in the end it's more work to fix, or would cause too many other problems for too many other people, we're not going to do it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 108
01-18-2012, 11:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Direphoenix View Post
If you want some more fun scale stuff... the interior of our in-game 'Sovereign' style bridges* are approximately 41m across (~135 feet!) both lengthwise and widthwise, and what appears to be about 10-15m high (I would guess about 40 feet from bottom level to ceiling dome)... imagine the space that would take up inside a "scale" Defiant!



* Sovereign bridges: Alliance, Diplomat, Star Explorer, Ceremonial, San Francisco, Zimmerman, Eaves
It's too late for me to dig up my old threads on the subject. I calculated the size of the captain's quarters (on all Fed interiors) as about 3,900 square feet. If that isn't extravagant, I don't know what is. Let them eat cake!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 109
01-18-2012, 11:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kirian_darkstar View Post
Logical indeed...
Except 3.5 meters height would make much better sense as shown here http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/sc...-okudagram.jpg
You can see the people on board.

Oh and you forgot Deck 5...
The deck layout is from the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Technical Manual and is largely consistent with the master systems display seen many times on-screen. In addition, three references were made to a "deck 5" during the fourth season: "The Way of the Warrior", "Rejoined" and "To the Death". The first two citations were in reference to hull breaches; the third citation had Captain Sisko traveling to "Deck 5, Section 1" via turbolift.

Ex Astris Scientia even made a reference to the problem.
Don't forget the mythical Deck 6 listed on the Defiant's turbolift display now! :p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 110
01-18-2012, 11:04 PM
Deck 6 is another wormhole that takes you to Wonderland.

Here's the USS Taco next to the Ops Dome.

Now, I know the Miranda's small, but the window just in front of my port nacelle is Sisko's office window. . .
Ops as a whole (Internally, on the show) is roughly the size of an average bridge.
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