Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
08-14-2010, 04:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by inktomi19d View Post
Pistols are fine, they just aren't always the best choice for Tacs.

Honestly the expose/exploit system isn't the best for Tacs either. Tactical officers need to do very high DPS, and expose weapons do less damage with only a 10% chance of generating an expose. For a Sci or Engi officer who has 2 or 3 other 10% exposes, one more from a weapon just pads their chances enough to make them reliable. Engineers and science officers can also generally take fire for longer than a Tac, so they can afford to hang out and wait for an expose.

But a Tactical officer can nearly one-shot people with a fully-buffed sniper shot from the flank. Even from the front and without buffs the Tac can make shields go poof. Tactical officers are the only ones who can improve DPS with skills, which makes it so they don't need the exposes before their exploit attacks do major damage.

The reason that pistols aren't a great choice for tacs is that only one type of pistol has an exploit attack, so a tac officer focussing on pistols basically loses the ability to swap weapons for a second exploit attack. Either that or you have to skill up both rifles and pistols and carry one of each (which actually isn't so awful when you consider that most of the defensive buffs improve with pistols while offensive buffs improve with rifles, it's just expensive).

The issue isn't as major for other classes since they don't have a skill investment forcing them one way or the other -- as long as they have some way to spread exposes around they're fine.
I carry dual pistols because the secondary counts as multiple shots, so it really has a 10% chance to expose at least 5 times, then you lunge. Both of these abilities also have quick recharge times and with focus fire, the multiple volleys from the dual pistol secondary stings, weather you get an exploit chance with lunge or not.

You can also do focus fire with the first setting and then the secondary ends up doing more damage than a sniper shot.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
08-15-2010, 04:29 AM
Compression Pistols do the highest "Sustained" DPS in the game due to lower CD on their special. Problem is their burst is 30% lower than a sniper, and even lower than a Split beam (Which deals the same burst to 3 targets), and also takes over a second to get off (thus interrupt-able, vs a Split beam that is instant).

It is hard enough to land an Exploit shot against a good player as it is, because they will LoS (you know, actually MOVE where you cannot hit them) or hit a shield recharge faster than you can react generally. Only time Exploits land on a good team is if the person is incapacitated and their healer is on another person and cannot switch fast enough.

A Tac uses skills that are "Multipliers" and they stack. A Tac relies on high crit (multiplier), and enhances that with CritD weapons (multplier...stacking). If everything triggers as planned, and all of the stacking multipliers go off, starting with 140 base damage is going to be drastically lower than starting from 200. With healing and shield regen the way they are....you should get the picture...

There are other nuances (pros and cons) that apply to weapon energy types, proc rates (they differ per weapon) for off abilities on weapons and such, but those nuances are a bit more advanced and do not apply to the OP in this instance and are better left for a more "Serious" inquisition that most likely will never appear in this forum and hence would be conveyed in private chat or on vent by someone who genuinely wants that information.

Right now, a CC Tac is not viable at General/Admiral play because of lack of defense. Engineer toys will plain shred them if the run into them.

If you are playing people who stand there and absorb damage til they die, use compression pistols by all means. Not ONE person here who is a pistol fan is one that I would take notice of in a game as a threat. There are like 10-15 ground players who I NOTICE when they show up, cause...they can kill me if I do not keep track of them (Even if I do...).

3 of those people have posted it would be a waste to go Pistols...no matter what, for a Tac. If you are taking advice of what to do to be better, do you listen to the people who, solo or in a group of 2 can beat down your 5 man team 30-4, or do you listen to the people taking the beat down? Choice is yours...

I actually think it is amusing someone asks for advice, gets it from a few good players, and then others chalk it off to bullsiht saying it "does not matter", or "pistols are BETTER"...you know...the same guys who are the first to yell "Exploiter. Cheater, Hacker" in a fight when one or two of the people who gave decent advice are mopping up their 5 man fleet premade (and then log or refuse to spawn while venting hell made anger at random people...you know the type, right?).

I had one guy report me a few times for "using a third party helper program", as he insisted I HAD to be using one. Reason why: He had tried "Everything" to match my output in a match and could not even hit half my normal output, therefore in his mind, I HAD to be cheating...period. But, did he EVER ask me what I did? No...He sat there using his compression pistols (HIGHEST DPS in the game he told me, as if he was so smart to figure that out and I was SO dumb NOT to use them) on his Tac, did everything "HE" could think of to be the "best", and deduced the only way to do better than him was to cheat.

Our fleet Tacs use all sorts of weapons, depending on the team we are facing. We have to switch weapons out often to execute certain strategies (which we have been able to mold well), but for every type of weapon we may use, we will use the rifle version as they hit a tad harder and usually have a slight range advantage. It is not uncommon for our Sci Tank to have as much damage output as our Tacs in some cases due to certain strategy configurations, but that is all good, as we do our job and he does his, which in the end hopefully equates to a team win.

Longer CD's are not an issue when using your kit/Tac abilities absorbs the longer CD times anyways, and kit skills/Tac abilities are much greater than short CD's on weapons for a "tad" higher "sustained" DPS.

My offer still stands. If you want to prove to me your pistols are as good or superior, let me know and we can meet to test it out.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
08-15-2010, 07:56 AM
I've actually taken a love to the Full Auto Assault now, since my alt started out using one I got the hang of it fast,
not to mention It's almost exactly like Dual Pistols, so I'm liking it so far and the respec for it is only one box so respeccing for it will be easy! I already get 42 DPS with the main setting with 0 skill invested in assault training
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
08-15-2010, 09:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pairadocks View Post
Compression Pistols do the highest "Sustained" DPS in the game due to lower CD on their special. Problem is their burst is 30% lower than a sniper, and even lower than a Split beam (Which deals the same burst to 3 targets), and also takes over a second to get off (thus interrupt-able, vs a Split beam that is instant).
The compression bolt takes 1 second to charge and .25 seconds to activate. The split beam takes 1.25 seconds to activate. The compression bolt is interruptible, but both take the same time to use, and a 1 second charge time with no obvious graphic is near impossible to interupt through anything other than luck.
Quote:
It is hard enough to land an Exploit shot against a good player as it is, because they will LoS (you know, actually MOVE where you cannot hit them) or hit a shield recharge faster than you can react generally. Only time Exploits land on a good team is if the person is incapacitated and their healer is on another person and cannot switch fast enough.
Which is why it's helpful to use frequent exploit attacks as part of your regular rotation. It's hard to defend against something that was already in flight anyway.
Quote:
Right now, a CC Tac is not viable at General/Admiral play because of lack of defense. Engineer toys will plain shred them if the run into them.
This is completely true. Tactical is all about DPS.

Quote:
If you are playing people who stand there and absorb damage til they die, use compression pistols by all means.
It's not about shooting at one person until they die. If you can pop someone with one sniper shot that's fine, but otherwise you're going to be waiting to catch someone who's already hurting before they can get to cover or get help. Split beams are good for that because they hit adjacent targets without aiming specifically at them, and compression pistols are good because they are very quick.

I wouldn't argue that pistols are the only thing one should use, just that if you exclude sniper rifles, they are close enough to rifle burst damage that the speed and sustained DPS can make them a viable alternative.
Quote:
Not ONE person here who is a pistol fan is one that I would take notice of in a game as a threat.
To be fair I've barely been in ground PvP recently; with queues the way they are I just don't have the patience for it. I'm not trying to argue as an expert though.

What I'm not getting though is the objective basis for your assertions. It doesn't matter if you have an expert opinion if your opinion clashes with fact.

Compression bolts do about 71% of the damage of a sniper shot with a 7.2 second cooldown. Split beams do about 79% of the damage of a sniper shot with a 12 second cooldown. If you want to argue subjective opinion, then you could argue how much that extra 8% matters, or whether hitting multiple targets is better than faster firing.

Since it takes the same total time for either a compression bolt or split beam to fire, and with the global cooldown on weapon swaps making back-to-back exploits impossible, I don't believe that 8% makes a huge difference; the regular shots you have to fire while waiting on the global cooldown are enough to get a kill, and if your target was going to avoid or heal through those regular shots they would have avoided or healed enough the split beam wouldn't get them either. Whenever you talk about a secondary exploit weapon you're counting on a target standing still for about 3 seconds or else switching to a different target.

In the end it's very close, the difference comes down to preference, and either way won't make a bad player good or a good player bad.

Basically the numbers just don't bear out the night and day difference you describe. Instead there are a few value judgements that matter: 79% of sniper damage versuse 71%? 12 sec cooldown versus 7.2? uninterruptible versus interruptible? There's pros and cons to each, and ways to best exploit the pros and mitigate the cons.
Quote:
I actually think it is amusing someone asks for advice, gets it from a few good players, and then others chalk it off to bullsiht saying it "does not matter", or "pistols are BETTER"...you know...the same guys who are the first to yell "Exploiter. Cheater, Hacker" in a fight when one or two of the people who gave decent advice are mopping up their 5 man fleet premade (and then log or refuse to spawn while venting hell made anger at random people...you know the type, right?).
And yet no amount of name-calling or appeals to authority seem to change the objective fact, or that the game system is based on known quantities.

I'm not trying to be rude, but if you're right then explain it in a way that doesn't rely either on your being elite, or others being noobs. The game is based on objective facts, and while opinion matters, it should be based in fact.
Quote:
I had one guy report me a few times for "using a third party helper program", as he insisted I HAD to be using one. Reason why: He had tried "Everything" to match my output in a match and could not even hit half my normal output, therefore in his mind, I HAD to be cheating...period. But, did he EVER ask me what I did? No...He sat there using his compression pistols (HIGHEST DPS in the game he told me, as if he was so smart to figure that out and I was SO dumb NOT to use them) on his Tac, did everything "HE" could think of to be the "best", and deduced the only way to do better than him was to cheat.
You keep coming back to strawmen.

Of course the guy was going to suck if he only used one weapon. You could substitute in any other "best" weapon a person might pick, and if they only use that they are still going to get beat by an opponent who knows how and when to swap things out.

Quote:
Our fleet Tacs use all sorts of weapons, depending on the team we are facing. We have to switch weapons out often to execute certain strategies (which we have been able to mold well), but for every type of weapon we may use, we will use the rifle version as they hit a tad harder and usually have a slight range advantage.
And basically the compression pistol is the "sniper" version of pistols. Basically you'd be using it it you wanted two sniper type weapons instead of a sniper weapon and some type of AOE weapon.

There are 5 exploit weapons: the sniper rifle, split beam rifle, compression pistol, auto-targetting assault, and high-density beam rifle. The sniper rifle has the highest damage (100%); the split beam does 79%, compression pistol 71%, auto-targetting assault 65%, and HD beam 37% (rounded down in all cases). On average, exploit weapons do 70% of the damage of a sniper shot.

Rifles only have better range on the expose weapons; the compression pistol is the exact same range as the best rifles, and 8 yards better than the worst.

Basically you're saying that the weapon with marginally above-average burst damage, best DPS, and best recharge speed is in all cases worse than rifles, when half of the rifles do less burst damage and one of them even has a shorter range. All of the top 3 burst weapons seem pretty good to me, and every one of my*characters uses one of those 3 weapons. I favor exploit/exploit over expose/exploit on my tactical officers.
Quote:
Longer CD's are not an issue when using your kit/Tac abilities absorbs the longer CD times anyways, and kit skills/Tac abilities are much greater than short CD's on weapons for a "tad" higher "sustained" DPS.
It's really not just sustained DPS, compression pistols are competitive in burst DPS too. And cooldowns *always* matter. It's nice being able to reset everything, but unless you are holding back and waiting for exposes you end up dealing with the cooldowns again.

As I mentioned before, there isn't that big a difference between split beam burst and compression bolt burst anyway.
Quote:
My offer still stands. If you want to prove to me your pistols are as good or superior, let me know and we can meet to test it out.
"Pistol", singular

I prefer exploit/exploit over expose/exploit, so there really isn't a way to avoid using at least one rifle.

I'll probably see you when the queues get straightened out. I do remember you from when I was very active, though I don't recall if you played fed side or klink side mostly. My big tactical is Scarlet@inktomi19d, fed side. Maybe some people remember me, I'm not sure. I'm not specced for sniper/compression right now because it eats a lot of skill points and the space queues are much more reliable than ground, but I wouldn't mind speccing back once the queues are straight.

I'm goofing around with a Lt. Cdr (M'Rii@inktomi19d) tactical that sometimes uses two pistols. Mostly I wanted to play with melee kits and traits, so I use a pistol or two with that because the pistol shares more skills with melee than rifles do. I'm doing well with it, but it's only tier 2 and not my first tac. I don't get people reporting me the way they did for "one-shotting" them with a sniper-shot/compression-bolt combination (with regular attacks there were normally 3-4 hits in the combo, but they came fast enough that combat logs wouldn't always show them, or they would record the hits out of order, which lead to a lot of accusations) but I still win more than I lose in the kiddie grades.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
08-15-2010, 09:35 AM
Thank you above post for some insight (and for saying some things I was too shy to say as a response).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
08-15-2010, 11:49 AM
I figure a lot of people use the cone attack expose generating assault or rifle weapons for the knockback.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
08-16-2010, 01:22 AM
That' fine inktomi19d, come test your numbers.
I have fought you a few times (your cat anyways)....If they get the private queues working like they said they would, I will "test" the numbers with a toon who is a teir or 2 lower so there is not a gear discrepancy.
Split Beams are instant specials btw, not 1.25...no matter. Just a thought though....with timed specials, you sorta get locked in one place while they trigger....not a big deal though I guess...well...to me maybe, but I am strange.
Quote:
Originally Posted by inktomi19d
As I mentioned before, there isn't that big a difference between split beam burst and compression bolt burst anyway
Yea, unless you like instant specials compared to 1.25 second lock delays to fire, which hit 3 targets, not one, for more damage to each of the 3 targets than the one takes...with the chance to exploit an exposed enemy you may not have targeted....there is very little difference (If you do not count the pretty animations as a difference)

Keep in mind tool tips may not reflect reality, and after testing...don't....for pistols anyways. After now wasting my time to double check what I already pretty much knew with 2 different types of pistols, pistols are actually...broken. I would not arm a pistol now on ANY class after what I have seen. Your "Objective Facts" failed to allocate for real numbers and several actual weapon combat variables that exist in the engine, and the weapons, and signify a great percentage of actual damage/CC/DoT output. No need to get into that though...suffice to say, the tool tips are either incomplete (for all ground weapons this is true), or flat out wrong (in the case of pistols). After a real bout of shooting, the "Facts" do not unfold as you may think. There is something called a "Normal Shot"...like it or not...it is used...a lot...more than specials in most cases. Under the exact same conditions against the exact same targets, in a 2 second span (2 shots), I can deal MAX ~160 damage with a compression pistol and ~1200 damage with a sniper rifle OR Split beam...though Split beams require a higher chain of procs to hit max...with 2 apply chances on the pistol, compared to 4 on the sniper (6 on a split beam, which is argument to keep split beams as "main" btw...but...different conversation). The same applies for the dual pistols I tested. So, from what I am seeing, "Something" is not right (with pistols or rifles, take your pick).

Now, perhaps there is a "Glancing" critical and "Full" critical built into the engine, and I just never got a "Full" critical through 200 or so shots, with a 17+% critical chance, with the pistols that exceeded 80 points, and never got UNDER 200 (up to 300) with a rifle in the same 200 shots...highly unlikely, but possible. But, the Non-Critical shots (Normal hits) tell a story also. Normal damage for both the Sniper and Split Beam hovered right around 100 per shot and the pistols were around 50 per shot. Shots took the exact same amount of time to execute, but both pistols did half the damage as both rifles. That alone, in itself, tells me "Something" is wrong with Pistols (Or Rifles are somehow pulling double the intended damage) and in itself is reason enough for me to avoid pistols like the plague.

I would not get to comfortable believing "objective fact, or that the game system is based on known quantities" is actually as sound of a foundation you believe it to be. That's just me though...after I...you know....actually tested stuff. But suffice to say, the "Preference"...being a wash and all...is simply not true. As of right now, pistols should be the last choice of any class, unless you like the cool animations, or are a master of the stun pistol (which is not about DPS, but CC...and the bonuses you get shooting a CC'ed target...you know, more variables...). I invite you, or anyone for that matter, to enter a controlled situation and either duplicate, or get drastically different results. I would like to see it. It just takes mind-numbing time to do, heh.

Trust me, I am far from elite...I hold my own. I am built from character creation for ground. That is a huge advantage before I ever step into an arena. I allocate skills to ALL ground slots during level up, because it will help when I switch kits. I am not worried if I will "Spec" Pistols or Rifles so I can put the other skills into my space traits. If your trying to be viable in space and ground, from what I have seen on ground, it is just not gonna happen...too many things are against you before you step into your first match. Just my opinion though....not an elite, expert one.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
08-17-2010, 01:20 AM
Go with what makes you happy.. at least until you become a detriment to your team... then, learn your job.

I can safely bet that I've caught 10x the amount of mockery or hate than most any other player because my Sci often uses a bat'leth... it either kills too slow or its OP.. depending on who you ask. The bat is just that fun for me.. regardless of what people say. So.. I'll use it. ((However, here lately, its just better to use guns except in rare moments. ))
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
08-23-2010, 01:14 AM
I'll just add my observations from PvE - the split beam after exhaustive testing there seemed to do a LOT more damage and kill enemies a LOT faster than the pistols, and while in theory the dual pistols should have gotten more damage and more exposes, the full auto assault and other such weapons were simply better.

So there may really be something to the "pistols are broken" argument.

Anyway, this is sounding like fun. I may start playing some ground pvp, provided I can do well enough without gimping my space skills.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
08-23-2010, 09:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pairadocks View Post
That' fine inktomi19d, come test your numbers.
I have fought you a few times (your cat anyways)....If they get the private queues working like they said they would, I will "test" the numbers with a toon who is a teir or 2 lower so there is not a gear discrepancy.
Split Beams are instant specials btw, not 1.25...no matter. Just a thought though....with timed specials, you sorta get locked in one place while they trigger....not a big deal though I guess...well...to me maybe, but I am strange.
I was unclear. Both weapons take the same time to go through their firing sequence, so neither is better or worse as far as your next attack goes. The compression pistol has a 1 second timer to fire though, during which it can be interrupted.

The compression pistol doesn't root you though, you can still run when you fire it. The only effective difference between it and an "instant" weapon is the 1 second window in which it can be interrupted.

Quote:
Yea, unless you like instant specials compared to 1.25 second lock delays to fire, which hit 3 targets, not one, for more damage to each of the 3 targets than the one takes...with the chance to exploit an exposed enemy you may not have targeted....there is very little difference (If you do not count the pretty animations as a difference)
It's a 1 second delay, and it doesn't lock you in place.

There is a big benefit to hitting up to 3 targets at once, and I use the split beam on some of my characters. But the compression pistol has it's own advantages, which I feel better compliment the sniper rifle.

At later ranks my action bar is so crowded that between activating a half-dozen abilities, dodging behind cover every time I get hit, and then using tactical initiative to refresh my top abilities, it's like 10 or 15 seconds into a fight before my secondary weapon even matters. Where I find myself relying heavily on my backup weapon is when the fight gets too close or too mobile to use the sniper rifle. In those cases I'd usually rather have a fast weapon with a knockdown effect.

Since the queues have been fixed I've tried it out several times with either the compression pistol or split beam, and the split beam keeps coming up short as a backup, because it's just too slow and doesn't stop runners or buy me time to set up a sniper shot.

With an expose/exploit weapon combo I like the split beam a lot better, because in that case I generally have two weapons which can be used at any range or in a moving fight. But with the sniper rifle, there's a lot of time when you just can't use your main weapon.

Quote:
There is something called a "Normal Shot"...like it or not...it is used...a lot...more than specials in most cases.
If I'm running two exploit weapons the normal shots mostly only come while I'm waiting on the timer for the special after swapping. Usually it's around 1:1 if I'm refreshing my other abilities as quickly as possible.

Quote:
Under the exact same conditions against the exact same targets, in a 2 second span (2 shots), I can deal MAX ~160 damage with a compression pistol and ~1200 damage with a sniper rifle OR Split beam...
Meaning you do 1200 with 2 normal shots from a Sniper Rifle? Or with 1 normal and one special?

On normal shots my Compression Pistol and Sniper Rifle do exactly the same damage, at the same rate of fire. The only difference is in the specials.
Quote:
"Something" is not right (with pistols or rifles, take your pick).
Generally speaking the way pistols are balanced is not as effective at higher levels as it is at lower levels. In general pistols have a higher rate of fire, with similar DPS to other weapons, which is fine if all you're doing is cycling through your weapon's attacks. But at higher levels you've got so many buffs and debuffs, and spend so much time ducking for cover, that you rarely fire more than a few shots in a row. The pistols mostly don't get enough "uptime" to shine.

Quote:
I just never got a "Full" critical through 200 or so shots, with a 17+% critical chance, with the pistols that exceeded 80 points, and never got UNDER 200 (up to 300) with a rifle in the same 200 shots...highly unlikely, but possible. But, the Non-Critical shots (Normal hits) tell a story also. Normal damage for both the Sniper and Split Beam hovered right around 100 per shot and the pistols were around 50 per shot. Shots took the exact same amount of time to execute, but both pistols did half the damage as both rifles. That alone, in itself, tells me "Something" is wrong with Pistols (Or Rifles are somehow pulling double the intended damage) and in itself is reason enough for me to avoid pistols like the plague.
I really don't understand how you're getting that? I don't mean you're lying, I just don't understand how you're getting that result. Unless somehow your pistol skills aren't applying or something.

On the Sniper Rifle and Compression pistol, which have exactly the same normal shots by the tooltip, I'm getting the same hits. Not all of my ground skills are maxed, but all of them which buff either rifle or pistol damage are.

Quote:
I would not get to comfortable believing "objective fact, or that the game system is based on known quantities" is actually as sound of a foundation you believe it to be. That's just me though...after I...you know....actually tested stuff.
I've tested it too. Your testing is coming up strangely. You've got two weapons with exactly the same attack showing vastly different results.
Quote:
But suffice to say, the "Preference"...being a wash and all...is simply not true. As of right now, pistols should be the last choice of any class, unless you like the cool animations, or are a master of the stun pistol (which is not about DPS, but CC...and the bonuses you get shooting a CC'ed target...you know, more variables...).
Preference does matter, it's just not measurable. If you compare a split-beam, sniper rifle, and a compression pistol, they all three have different strengths and weaknesses. I love the sniper rifle, but there are times when it's just awful. There are people who might get more use out of an AOE weapon which can hit unlimited targets, but for many the 3 targets hit by the split-beam are the most they could reasonably hit anyway.

It's just hard to argue that stuff because not everyone can make use of the same things.

Quote:
I invite you, or anyone for that matter, to enter a controlled situation and either duplicate, or get drastically different results. I would like to see it. It just takes mind-numbing time to do, heh.
Honestly I don't have the patience to get any more "controlled" than reviewing my combat log and paying attention to numbers as the come up. But if one were doing twice as much damage, that would be hard to miss. A 10% variation might take controlled tests to see, but a 100% variation would be plain as long as your eyes are open.
Quote:
Trust me, I am far from elite...I hold my own. I am built from character creation for ground. That is a huge advantage before I ever step into an arena. I allocate skills to ALL ground slots during level up, because it will help when I switch kits. I am not worried if I will "Spec" Pistols or Rifles so I can put the other skills into my space traits. If your trying to be viable in space and ground, from what I have seen on ground, it is just not gonna happen...too many things are against you before you step into your first match. Just my opinion though....not an elite, expert one.
I don't think any of my characters really have perfect ground traits, and several of my characters are 6 or 7 feet tall instead of the mandatory 3 foot maximum. That stuff makes a difference, but you can compensate for it.

Speccing into *every* ground trait seems a little unnecessary though. At VA/LG level you can almost max out two skills at every tier on the ground and still have plenty of points for space. You'll be a bit behind players who are built exclusively for ground, but it's not awful.
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