Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
08-19-2010, 12:19 AM
hi azurian i hope my friend was able to help you last night , but going by this post
i dont know if you listened to him or not , i mean what do you want ?
my friend was able to tank my bop + 2 others & kill us in his starcruiser.
then i read this post your wanting to survive pvp but then your like i dont wanna copy such a persons build.

i mean wth dude when you go pop like you do in pvp then someone offers to help you.
then they see this post there like why bother you aint listening .. you dont need to copy there exact builds
listen to what they say them play with it mod it to suit yourself & maybe just maybe make it better.

News flash as well none of my ships have engineering consoles like hull plating.
last night i decided i wanted to try something as iv said b4 6 toons maxed out 3 kling in bops
3 feds in fleet escorts .. well last night i took my fed sci & put him in an assault cruiser.

the cruisers tactical slots suck but i thought hey wth lets play.

ens tac : THY
lt tac : tac team / Beam overload 2
eng comm :eps / engineer / eps2 / action field3
eng lt comm :epa / rsp / aux to sif 2
lt sci :sci team / HE 2

now i stuck with actionfield 3 cause none of my friends were on where i could pass my officer to them to hold for me while i switched to my engineer to train in either warp plasma 3 or EPS 3

after that i did 2 cap & holds & died once , yes once in 2 cap & holds first cap & hold i did 300k damage & 280k healing
2nd cap & hold i did over 400k damage & just over 300k healing.
I know im no where near the best pvp players (for damage & healing) but i tell you what since season 2 my bops struggle to do damage like that.. especially if i try not to die.

that reminds me of a cap & hold a fed was like lol look at him run .. i didnt even try to explain that i run in cap & holds because it gives me good practice for when i play cracked planets / solar winds
where you need to stay alive.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
08-19-2010, 12:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
In Star Trek, how many times have they used multiple abilities in a fight?


Now in order to be considered "good", you have to fly certain ships and have exact builds like other people. For instance, to be good in PvP, Escorts that aren't full cannon builds are regarded as laughable.
This is just wrong on it's face. I have seen some great beam build escorts. Beam overload can be wicked for escorts and I have been 1 shotted a few times by them. Wicked dangerous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
If you fly an Galaxy-X or a Sovereign, you are regarded as a joke because you are incapable of resistance stacking multiple abilities and tank multiple ships in combat. Or if you are in anything but an Intrepid-R, you aren't playing the game right.
This is also wrong on it's face. I have flow very often in a Sovereign and an Galaxy X and have done very well. This is just a bad player trying to blame the ship ( though the be honest the Galaxy X is the weakest cruiser.... trade off for cloak I guess )

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
BoP's are "fragile" yet able to tank other player ships. And everyone has to have Reverse Shield Polarity.
You don't HAVE to have RSP. I have a couple of alternate builds that don't even have a single one. There are trade-offs. Is it riskier... yes

But a good player can make up for the loss of the green diaper baby power. I refuse to ever use more than 1. I would rather not see it in the game...but you don't NEED it.

Frankly, the only reason I even have 1 is so when I get that nasty escort on me that has RSP up for 15 seconds and is wailing on me.. .harder than I can repair, I can get through THEIR 15 second invulnerable assault. In other words, I have it, because they have it..... if they didn't have it, I wouldn't need it.

The need for the power is pretty much that simple... I need it, because you have it. Get rid of it and the balance of the game would not change very much. It would just expose the bad players fast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
If you don't, then you get the classic, "LEARN 2 PLAY!" insult and called a newb or a loser.
What does it matter what others think of you. Just find the way you want to play and do it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
Well, I for one am tired of these insults and I think that it's time that Space Combat is revised to be more Star Trek, where Shields aren't terrible and hulls that don't go poof by a magical torpedo. And players can have any build they want and be as equally good as another with a cookie cutter build.
Well, I am sorry you feel that you need to have a "cookie cutter build", but I disagree. My build is different than many player's builds. I have seen a lot of variety that is very successful. It all comes down to the hands of the player. Sorry if you cannot find a build that works for you..... I would consider perhaps either more practice or take a break for a while and step back from it.

I have around 44,000 pvp tokens now, averaging about 30 tokens a match and have even spent about 1500 of them on top of the 44,000. I have experience in battle.

Practice makes perfect. Perhaps try something different.... experiment.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
08-19-2010, 01:16 AM
Have no problems to defense again escorts ... they can activate all available buff i can easy alive it, and i'am flying a sovereign.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
08-19-2010, 01:55 AM
Azurian, you should be aware that the difference between HE2 and PH2 is miniscule in terms of effective hps gained. The difference there is that HE can heal others, PH can protect you from tractor beams. PH is actually better with less armor consoles, while HE is better only with armor consoles, in terms of effective hps. PH also requires other heals to benefit from the high resistance value.

You certainly dont need TSS if you use 2 EP-S and overlap them for 100% uptime.

If you put yourself into disadvantage, its because you refuse to use Aux to SIF, even those mediocre aux power 60 represents tremendous benefit for 1 slot.

A spike heal of PH2+ET3 with 4 armor consoles is roughly 2,5x less effective than using PH2+AUX to SIF 3+ET3 combination. Without any armor console, the lack of aux to sif makes for only 25% loss thou.

So you see, aux to sif is very powerful ability, you voluntary dont use. Its something like escort refusing to use CRF and complaining that he doesnt do as much dmg as someone with CRF3. Its a choice.

The only fact i dont like about aux to SIF, its that its used a heal for others, which doesnt make much sense.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
08-19-2010, 02:44 AM
PVP is such a fluid experience it's hard to tell what you're doing "right" or "wrong". One opponent may have all the resists against your weapon type, but his team mate doesn't. Maybe someone popped your target a heal and you thought it was all him. There are strategies and tactics that go beyond stats and powers; if that BOP is obviously a 3 Engineer Slot super-tank, switch targets. Don't rush in first or at Full Impulse, etc.

And most importantly, don't expect to survive long. PVP is Hell.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
08-19-2010, 02:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
I know. Right now I can stack EptS3 with RSP for shields and Polarized Hull with Fleet Buff and Resistance Consoles. But people still say that setup sucks because I don't use Hazzard Emitters, SIF3, or TSS.

As for Supertank BoP, all you really need is RSP 1. :p
well, stacking resistances is not really effective since diminishing returns, so hulltanking is not possible except in an intrepid retrofit with ablative generators on, which is on a loooong cooldown and while on, energy weapons are disabled (which doesn't mean hull resistance is pointless, only stacking 234234 abilities).

the only way to survive focus fire (long term) is superior team play imo. rsp is nice to have to survive a bit longer and helps at the alpha strike, but if you are in a good team, you won't need it. thing is, beeing in a good team is something, that rarely happens.

in my star cruiser i use 2 rsp, because usually i am the only one on my team who heals others, even if there is a second cruiser in my team. having all heals on cooldown (2 eng team,1 aux to struct, 2 hazard, tss and attack pattern delta for extra hull resistance) there is not much left to help me if i'm under attack (except captain skills, but that's not enough to stand focus fire). i would love to switch my rsps for extend shields, but who heals me then? . definatly not you, since you don't use hazards, aux to struct or tss, and i doubt that you have extend shields or science team slotted. since you use emergency power to shields 3 there is no space left for eng team 3. maybe you have a great pve setup, but don't complain that you don't have a good pvp performance when you actually don't have anything to support your team (and normally vice versa, at least on fed side).

in my bop i'm using one copy of rsp and i am faaaar away from supertanking. but i do decent damage (not as much as an escort since the bop has one weapon slot and one tac cosole less, but i have more science skills left to do some "other" stuff. but you *could* go for a "supertank" bop, but then again, a cruiser can do it much better.

and as someone already stated, there are several ways to counter rsp or any other "op" combo.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
08-19-2010, 03:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalnar
Azurian, you should be aware that the difference between HE2 and PH2 is miniscule in terms of effective hps gained. The difference there is that HE can heal others, PH can protect you from tractor beams. PH is actually better with less armor consoles, while HE is better only with armor consoles, in terms of effective hps. PH also requires other heals to benefit from the high resistance value.

You certainly dont need TSS if you use 2 EP-S and overlap them for 100% uptime.

If you put yourself into disadvantage, its because you refuse to use Aux to SIF, even those mediocre aux power 60 represents tremendous benefit for 1 slot.

A spike heal of PH2+ET3 with 4 armor consoles is roughly 2,5x less effective than using PH2+AUX to SIF 3+ET3 combination. Without any armor console, the lack of aux to sif makes for only 25% loss thou.

So you see, aux to sif is very powerful ability, you voluntary dont use. Its something like escort refusing to use CRF and complaining that he doesnt do as much dmg as someone with CRF3. Its a choice.

The only fact i dont like about aux to SIF, its that its used a heal for others, which doesnt make much sense.
See that's what I'm talking about, "you're not good unless you use SIF 3". This wasn't a problem until the Dev Team nerfed Cruisers and forcing players into Aux builds.

Not only that it's cookie cutting Cruiser players instead of players having an option for various builds that are equally effective. And that's really ruining STO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaruslothran View Post
This is just wrong on it's face. I have seen some great beam build escorts. Beam overload can be wicked for escorts and I have been 1 shotted a few times by them. Wicked dangerous.
Yeah in PvP some people actually do laugh at those builds, because you don't do as much damage as cannons. (I'm not one of them of course, because my Fed Tac is Beam Build).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaruslothran View Post
This is also wrong on it's face. I have flow very often in a Sovereign and an Galaxy X and have done very well. This is just a bad player trying to blame the ship ( though the be honest the Galaxy X is the weakest cruiser.... trade off for cloak I guess )
I feel I do well in my Sovereign too, just not against multiple Escorts. And when fighting other Cruisers its always a stalemate (unless the other person is inexperienced).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaruslothran View Post
You don't HAVE to have RSP. I have a couple of alternate builds that don't even have a single one. There are trade-offs. Is it riskier... yes

But a good player can make up for the loss of the green diaper baby power. I refuse to ever use more than 1. I would rather not see it in the game...but you don't NEED it.

Frankly, the only reason I even have 1 is so when I get that nasty escort on me that has RSP up for 15 seconds and is wailing on me.. .harder than I can repair, I can get through THEIR 15 second invulnerable assault. In other words, I have it, because they have it..... if they didn't have it, I wouldn't need it.

The need for the power is pretty much that simple... I need it, because you have it. Get rid of it and the balance of the game would not change very much. It would just expose the bad players fast.
That's the thing, anyone can PvP in an Escort. That's why many people PvP in them, because they know they are likely to do good than lets say in a Science Ship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaruslothran View Post
What does it matter what others think of you. Just find the way you want to play and do it.
I know, but hard to do when people constantly berate you saying, "You suck, because you don't have X". And you got Cryptic messing things up more (like adding more buffs to tacticals when they were taken away a while ago because of just that).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaruslothran View Post
Well, I am sorry you feel that you need to have a "cookie cutter build", but I disagree. My build is different than many player's builds. I have seen a lot of variety that is very successful. It all comes down to the hands of the player. Sorry if you cannot find a build that works for you..... I would consider perhaps either more practice or take a break for a while and step back from it.

I have around 44,000 pvp tokens now, averaging about 30 tokens a match and have even spent about 1500 of them on top of the 44,000. I have experience in battle.

Practice makes perfect. Perhaps try something different.... experiment.
No, you misunderstand, I don't want a cookie cutter build, I want my own build. But like Dalnar said above, "you got to SIF3".

I was really happy with my Hull Heal Build until Cryptic suddenly forced us Cruiser Captains us to abandon Hull heals for Aux heals. That ruined Cruisers. Just try going 1 on 1 with one, unless you are a cloaked escort and ambush one, you're going to be there for a while.


And we all know there is a problem because people are leaving PvP in droves. Some cite the queues, but lots are getting annoyed with this crazy Resistance Stacking as well.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
08-19-2010, 04:29 AM
I certainly wouldn't go so far as to say that PVP is balanced. Fed players seem to hugely ignore how un-balancing several science ships can be when the KDF side has pretty much nothing to counter it, which was partialy balanced by the fact that KDF ships had cloak, but that balance has been removed now that at least 50% of any fed fleet consists of cloakable Galaxy X's and Defiants.

But I also wouldn't say that PVP is not fun, or that RSP and resist stacking is hurting it in any way. Regardless of whether or not science ships and/or abilities create an in-balance it doesn't always result in victory for either side. Generaly speaking the side that groups and communicates the best tends to win - even if they are out-numbered.

I can't count the amount of times I've gone into capture maps and no KDF player has bothered to create a group, and when someone DOES group, the players still fly off and do their own thing and ignore the requests for help, yet the amount of times I've attacked one Fed player and suddenly find 6 others sitting on my face shows how powerful working groups can be.

Ultimately, shields and hull are in general so weak that RSP and resists don't really make that much of a difference when you've got half the players on the mapp ganking you (which seems to happen to me a LOT - often feels like the fes are whispering to each other to just target me sometimes )

As has been said, you can't ever get true balance and constantly tweaking things to try usualy results in that un-balance just shifting to something else. Go with a setup and stick with it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19 Vet Here and still PVPing
08-19-2010, 04:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
No offense, but seems you are in the minority in thinking PvP is balanced. The population has taken a serious nosedive and many veteran PvPers are nowhere to be seen. Most are angry at the queue situation but others are had it with the balance.

I personally am tired of the insults of saying "my build sucks" because I don't use Faithborn's build, while everyone else cookie cuts. In which Escorts can't fight unless they sneek attack.


The complaints on RSP has been around for ages and I know they are a necessity for PvE and to survive Escort attacks in PvP. But everyone has it.


So something needs to be done. Because I guarantee if Cryptic introduces Open PvP zones, there definitely will be an issue regarding balance. Mark my words.
Well I have been playing pvp from day one and though you are right on some points others are flawed. Faithborn cookie builds are undead zombies yes but on the KDF side and with many other feds I see a multitude of different builds. I would be happy to see RSP go too. SO other then your undead class the rest seems pretty balanced but I wish you luck with your build. I am sorry to say but maybe your build sucks
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
08-19-2010, 05:07 AM
I think you got it wrong. The ET3 still is superior burst hull heal, it is however greatly improved by hull resistances you dont want to use. Aux to SIF was always there, it wasnt just so much widespread.

Your problem is, that you dont want to adapt to the system, and instead want the system to adapt to you. Even with 50 aux and aux to sif, you increase your effective hull hps by 25%. Again, its your choice.

Also you complain about lack of shielding, yet use the worst shields for sustained shielding.
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