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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
09-06-2010, 08:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyrus Pars
Dude you were already proven wrong that nothing you said means the ground pvp is broken. You just dont like it. Just stick o space and post about the part of the game you actually have experience playing. If there are any issues with ground, allow the people that actually do ground, to talk about it.
Hmm, I just don't like it? I don't think it is just me. Also please post said proof of wrongness. Since this is a statement of feeling about ground combat there is no proof of my feelings being wrong. I don't enjoy it...you can't prove otherwise. I am not alone in this in any respect. I can't think of a single fleet member in SFS (around 300 members) that has said ground combat is even remotely decent. Not 1. I have also never seen 1 of these members queue up or in any way request ground pvp. Sorry, but the ground game is garbage. As I stated, if it was a broken mess of garbage since launch,...and it has not been fixed or really changed since launch, please list the magical event that made it not garbage since then.

There is a reason that the vast majority of the STO PVP gaming community does not do ground PVP. Heck tons of players avoid any ground missions/fleet actions/ or "end game" content such as infected because the ground game is a massive pile of garbage.

So standing in this garbage pile screaming that it is everybody else's fault that they don't like ground pvp or ground anything or you feel they don't have enough experience in said ground content and at the same time screaming that you are king of said garbage heap is laughable.

So, as you are swatting at the flies buzzing around your head, as you stand on the heap....think about why your "kingdom" is so small.

Because ground combat sucks in STO.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
09-06-2010, 10:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaruslothran View Post
Hmm, I just don't like it? I don't think it is just me. Also please post said proof of wrongness. Since this is a statement of feeling about ground combat there is no proof of my feelings being wrong. I don't enjoy it...you can't prove otherwise. I am not alone in this in any respect. I can't think of a single fleet member in SFS (around 300 members) that has said ground combat is even remotely decent. Not 1. I have also never seen 1 of these members queue up or in any way request ground pvp. Sorry, but the ground game is garbage. As I stated, if it was a broken mess of garbage since launch,...and it has not been fixed or really changed since launch, please list the magical event that made it not garbage since then.

There is a reason that the vast majority of the STO PVP gaming community does not do ground PVP. Heck tons of players avoid any ground missions/fleet actions/ or "end game" content such as infected because the ground game is a massive pile of garbage.

So standing in this garbage pile screaming that it is everybody else's fault that they don't like ground pvp or ground anything or you feel they don't have enough experience in said ground content and at the same time screaming that you are king of said garbage heap is laughable.

So, as you are swatting at the flies buzzing around your head, as you stand on the heap....think about why your "kingdom" is so small.

Because ground combat sucks in STO.
Once again you stated your opinion that you dont like ground pvp. I dont argue that you dont like it. As a matter of fact I been saying that you just dont like it. But I did and still am saying all your reasons for saying ground is broken are not valid since none of them have anything to do with a broken system but with personal preference. For god sakes some of the things you have a problem with exist in almost ever other MMO pvp.

You self admittedly said that you have not done ground sine Beta. YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT SINCE YOU DONT PLAY GROUND.

And as for the Kingdom being small...It has more to do with it being Star Trek than something being wrong with ground pvp. Star Trek is about Space combat (watch DS9) not ground. So it is easy to see why people want to be Captain in space and not ground. Just like in SWG, ground was more popular than Space cause Star Wars is about Jedis and everyone wants to be one (hence why ground is big in SWG).

Obviously you know nothing about ground. You dont like it. thats all you can say. But please dont think your personal preference for ground means something is actually wrong with ground. I prefer Camaros over Mustangs, but that doesnt mean Mustangs are broken.

PS I dont care what the majority thinks. If you like to discuss the majority... majority dont pvp at all ( that goes for most MMOs). By your logic that mean space pvp blows too, just not as much as ground?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
09-06-2010, 11:37 PM
You guys need to realize this now: You will never agree.

Truth is: One guy likes it, the other dosen't.

One guy thinks it works, the other dosen't.

Unfortunally for the guy who thinks it works, the other guy is right that ground will be reworked, because the main playerbase seemingly disapproves of ground, and most people avoid going there.

That simple.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
09-06-2010, 11:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaruslothran
There is a reason that the vast majority of the STO PVP gaming community does not do ground PVP. Heck tons of players avoid any ground missions/fleet actions/ or "end game" content such as infected because the ground game is a massive pile of garbage.

So standing in this garbage pile screaming that it is everybody else's fault that they don't like ground pvp or ground anything or you feel they don't have enough experience in said ground content and at the same time screaming that you are king of said garbage heap is laughable.

So, as you are swatting at the flies buzzing around your head, as you stand on the heap....think about why your "kingdom" is so small.

Because ground combat sucks in STO.
The Majority of STO players do not PvP.
Why, because PvP is broke...err...PvP PLAYERS are broke...they are garbage.
I think you illustrated this just perfect in your ramblings.
In case you have not noticed, PvP as whole has a very low population, not just "ground", and it is getting lower by the day. No doubt in a large part to the mentality of the common PvP'er, which I think you exemplify perfectly. (Just my opinion, and I cannot enunciate "common" strongly enough). If given the option, the "Majority" would have PvP not exist in STO...so let's play the "Majority" card, shall we?

BTW, what WAS actually broken in ground was FIXED several patches back, though I do not think your observant enough to identify or explain what that was in the first place, but the main issues that contributed to the effed up movement issues exist no longer.
If you ask nice enough, I can even tell you what the fix was (since like I said, you obviously cannot put your finger on the "problem"). I doubt that is possible...or would it register anyways. I personally think if they tweaked it more so it was impossible to hang up on corners and steps (though I think the base engine may be in the way of actually doing this), it would get that much better, but for now, just the changes they have made have helped movement in ground drastically.

"Radar" (or the mini map as normal people call it) exists in every PvP I have ever played, and is sorta needed in this one to quicken games anyways AND like...durr...like find your OWN teammates. It is actually canon also.
You do not have to sacrifice much space traiting at all, if any if you're good, to be effective at ground, the sacrifices at the last tier are minor if you want to bump those into space traits, and the rest of WHAT YOU NEED for your given "role" can easily be taken and dealt with in the lower tiers. I know several people who pull off ground and space and do it well. But I REALLY hope Cryptic breaks up traits for ground and space so people can trait for both, because personally, that crutch is getting old. Ground will be no different once everyone can trait for it, besides the fact all the people how have whined for it will do a couple match's, and still abandon it anyways, going right back to space (Dirtnaps and a perpetual self butthurt will compel this action). At least they won't be able to whine that traiting is the only reason they will not do ground though.
There are SLIGHT imbalances between a couple of specific kits and one kit in particular is pretty much an "ultimate" 1v1 kit, but GROUP balance is damn good on ground. Perhaps you can elaborate on these "imbalances" (The real ones, not that any class can kill you...those aren't "imbalances"...). The largest "imbalance" I see is lack of the knowledge of ground mechanics and counters, but those also are not true "Imbalances" either, so can't use that as a bullet point either.

The best example of yours that ground is "broken" seems to be you think you look cool running around with pistols from what I see, so dude, since this is the case, do us all a favor and stay in space as space is something you can wrap your mind around, because I don't think it possible, or was it ever possible, to wrap your mind around ground.

I get it, you don't like ground. I hear you...I would rather rub broken glass in my eyes than play space. Space is "broken", it is "garbage". Both in PvP and PvE. I do not instance, because in most of them there are space fights. It is slow, you can chain macro commands, movement is EXTREMELY cumbersome, the X-Axis IS broken, and even more so than ground, space seems to entail the gang mentality....and gangraping (participating and receiving) is not fun to me personally.

A lot of people share my opinion and yours, but very few actually bother to come to the forums and make some crusade for it. Why? Probably because they are not all butthurt cause they sucked at it so bad and got killed all the time. They can overcome the ole ego, and get better, or decide it was not for them, but be grown up enough to realize that just because it was not for them, that some people can enjoy it, and wish them well in their chosen way to play the game. From what I have seen, the "Crusaders" that some aspect of the game is "Broken, garbage, and sucks" are the ones still butthurting from all the probing and penetrations they took while doing it. So rather than admit to themselves they needed work, it is attributed to the game "somehow" (dunno exactly how, but it HAS to be) being broken...or better yet, they can take it up a notch and accuse the players of this certain aspect of being "Hackers and cheaters" and the ever so popular "Klingons are imbalanced and OP".
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
09-07-2010, 12:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anazonda
Unfortunally for the guy who thinks it works, the other guy is right that ground will be reworked, because the main playerbase seemingly disapproves of ground, and most people avoid going there.
Well, unless they switch to another engine, this "Rework" will be nothing more than trying to tweak "balance" and possible introduction of different gear and consumables. They can throw in different maps for sure, but the core mechanics likely will not change much.
I doubt strongly any "rework" is going to change the minds of "the main playerbase" and I hope Cryptic realizes this before the bother to spend development time on it also. It does not matter how you dress a truly beautiful woman (or a Pig for that matter), so unless they change engines, be it in jeans, a dress, or a negligee, a truly beautiful woman will remain so, (as will a Pig).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
09-07-2010, 12:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pairadocks View Post
Well, unless they switch to another engine, this "Rework" will be nothing more than trying to tweak "balance" and possible introduction of different gear and consumables. They can throw in different maps for sure, but the core mechanics likely will not change much.
I doubt strongly any "rework" is going to change the minds of "the main playerbase" and I hope Cryptic realizes this before the bother to spend development time on it also. It does not matter how you dress a truly beautiful woman (or a Pig for that matter), so unless they change engines, be it in jeans, a dress, or a negligee, a truly beautiful woman will remain so, (as will a Pig).
I don't think it is that high on their list ATM... Im pretty sure that KFD takes the board right now.

On the rework matter: true, it would be a challenge to make a major overhaul of the ground portion of STO, but far from impossible.

Expecting that Cryptic develops their game using OOP (Object Oriented Programming... No one is stupid enough to not use it anymore), it would be as "simple" to take out the classes regarding ground, and re-working them to the parameters that people wan't.

I will however admit that doing so is nothing that can be done in a few hours, days or even months... Say they started with a 2 man team today, there would be the initial "what do the players expect".. That alone would probably take the better part of a month, and then theres the UML (Uniform Modeling Language... Developing chars on who stuff should work), wich admittedly if you're trained dosen't have to take long (3 weeks perhaps).
Then comes the coding wich IMO should take no less than 3-6 months when speaking about somthing as complex as ground (Gravity, cover, movement, weapons fire, interaction with objects in your enviroment, GUI and so on and so on).

Long story short: It would take no less than a year, provided the team would also have to cover for other tasks.

So ya... though one, but far from impossible.

Edit:

You really can't compare a game to somthing living, because unlike somthing living, you can easily tear out the faulty element, and replace it with somthing better.
It happens all the time, just look at operating systems. The developers of thoose rarely start from scratch, but develop and fix/replace faulty og insufficient code.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
09-07-2010, 01:30 AM
Just like the X Axis in space being broken, the "snags" on ground likewise are broken. I would like to think they can fix both with a simple coding fix, but I honestly think those 2 things (and many more) are inherent in the way the engine interprets movement in the game.
Now, I am not so sure if different engines can use the same code, but I sort of doubt it, or if they can, they probably have to rework all the models anyways.
But a lot of what I "see" that puts people off in game play "seems" to be the way the engine they use interprets movement commands and interactions with "environmental" pieces, NPC's and even "live" players.
That being said, keep the engine, the game "Plays" the same (they have tweaked space tons of times, but the X Axis still does not properly work).
So...reworking ground? Not really gonna change much in the end, or, that's the way I see it anyways. The base engine IS the 'living" part of the game. Change it, you have a different animal. Leave it, it is the same animal with different colored hair (or in other words, the same broken X Axis in space). Changing the engine is the equivalent of changing your OS in a roundabout sort of way. The whole system is going to be "different" on a fundamental level.
I know there are engines out there that can do what we (and hopefully Cryptic) wants. In WoW I could fly 90 degrees straight up on the X-Axis, and straight down, and I never snagged on a 90 in a wall or a stair step, so I KNOW it is possible. Now, is it PLAUSIBLE? I doubt it. I think "upgrading" the game on this scale, both in time and money is basically impossible. The game will have died long before the rework would ever hit production, and the cost would be enormous.
The ultimate fail in the end was what Cryptic STARTED with years ago when they started programming...the base engine.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
09-07-2010, 01:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pairadocks View Post
Just like the X Axis in space being broken, the "snags" on ground likewise are broken. I would like to think they can fix both with a simple coding fix, but I honestly think those 2 things (and many more) are inherent in the way the engine interprets movement in the game.
Now, I am not so sure if different engines can use the same code, but I sort of doubt it, or if they can, they probably have to rework all the models anyways.
But a lot of what I "see" that puts people off in game play "seems" to be the way the engine they use interprets commands and interactions with "environmental" pieces, NPC's and even "live" players.
That being said, keep the engine, the game "Plays" the same (they have tweaked space tons of times, but the X Axis still does not properly work).
So...reworking ground? Not really gonna change much in the end, or, that's the way I see it anyways. The base engine IS the 'living" part of the game. Change it, you have a different animal. Leave it, it is the same animal with different colored hair (or in other words, the same broken X Axis in space).
The axis is not broken... It's just limited...

The Engine intreprids things the way it was programmed to intrepid it. As such the parts of code effectively limiting such things as, to use your example, the Axis to a certain degree preventing 360 turns by stopping your movement once your model hits a angle of (i think) 70 degrees. They did this for a reason, and if you need an example just ask... Im too lazy to write it if i dont have to.

The thing is however, that that particular movement routine is most likely tied into other things and as such cannot just be ripped out just like that. A work around, or a fresh codesample would have to be developed.'

The engine is only as limited as the developer working on it. I do seem to remember DStahl mentioning that they did'n have full control over it, wich could be why things are sometimes going slow, but in reality it is only a question of development.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
09-07-2010, 02:00 AM
I see no reason NOT to allow loopty-loops in space. Gravity is supposed to be ship generated anyways, so seeing upside down ships should be a non-issue
In reality, inertial dampeners would have to be fitted on every ship also, allowing for side stepping (Instant left-right "side" movement) also....but...this game is based on a TV show, not reality, heh.
I seriously think they have not fixed ground snagging and space X-Axis because the can't. Be it that they do not have full control and cannot fix these things because it will affect CoH, or something along those lines, the fact remains they probably can't fix these issues with this engine.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
09-07-2010, 02:05 AM
Im pretty sure they can if they wan't to.. (in the axis matter for instance)... They just don't want to, because that would effectively mean to go back throug all the missions, and add alot of stuff, that was not added because of the current limits.

An esample could be that missions where the romulans have covered an "entire" planet with shields in orbit... In truth you can almost just fly above the shields, because it is only covering a small portion.

Of cause they could make it so, it if they wanted too, They just don't want to.

Seriously there is no such thing as "it can't be done" in a game engine. There is the question: Is it worth out time considering what we will need to change througout the game?

In this case it just isn't.
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