Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 111
09-17-2010, 03:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vampiric_hoshi View Post
I think thats more a matter of Klingon players typicaly knowing that a sci vessel is the biggest threat and thereby make it the primary target - but clearly that is negated when feds field more than 1 or 2 of them, and thats when it really becomes game changing and thats the difference.
Funny that Science ships are currently considered the weakest ships around, with no ability to win fights on their own and mostly relying on others to bring the actual spikes to cause harm.

I suppose a Science shield drain build with tri-cobalts is a lethal threat to Bird of Preys, but what isn't?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 112
09-17-2010, 06:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
I think assuming the K'vort ever makes an appearance in STO it should be a T4 vessel with a T5 refit and without universal slots.

this design only makes sense in the way that for example in real-life the PanzerVI "Tiger" was basically an inflated Pazer IV, when you look at the shape.
That was one of the reasons why there were so many sightings of Tigers on the Western front despite so few of them actually operating there:
Soldiers mistook the Panzer IV for Tigers.
History tells us one pretty big fact in regards to ship design: if it works, keep it. And not only have we kept the things that work, but we have continuously super sized them.

Go look at a 5th rate ship during the battle of Trafalgar and compare it to a 1st rate ship of the line like HMS Victory - the design is identical, the concepts shape and curves are identical. The only difference is that the Victory is a good 3 times bigger with a good 3 times as many cannons.

If that isn't reason enough to explain the K'Vort, then look at this another way.

The B'Rel was a successful ship. So successful infact that has been arguably the most successful ship in the known history of the Klingon Empire. Even up to TNG's era B'Rels were renowned for defeating vessels far above their weight class - culminating in the defeat of both the Enterprise and Enterprise D (we know how they destroyed both of these, but most others only see that a B'Rel popped them).

This meant that the B'Rel was a feared vessel for over 80 years - probably the most feared vessel in the Alpha Quadrant until the Borg.

Now keep in mind that much of the Empire consists of conquered worlds - and the best way to rule over a conquered species is by fear. So one of the best tools you have at maintaining that fear is to utilise the fear factor of a vessel renowned for being deadly - the B'Rel.

So if your conquered species crap their pants when a tiny little B'Rel decloaks before them, imagine what would happen when what appears to be a B'Rel that is 3 times as big decloaks.

The K'Vort isn't just about re-using a design that works, its about taking advantage of the fear factor that the B'Rel generated.

Consider these things, and the K'Vort makes absolute perfect sense.

Ask yourselves this: If the Federation could make a Defiant that was 3 times as big, would they? You bet they would. The only reason they haven't is because it took some major convincing of the Fed council to even allow them to produce the Defiant since "they are not a military".

Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
Funny that Science ships are currently considered the weakest ships around, with no ability to win fights on their own and mostly relying on others to bring the actual spikes to cause harm.

I suppose a Science shield drain build with tri-cobalts is a lethal threat to Bird of Preys, but what isn't?
Obviously it depends largely on the player flying it and the setup, but only a fool would consider a science vessel the weakest ship around.

They're tougher than escorts, they have very similar DPS to cruisers (can tank as successfuly as cruisers as well), AND they can spam a number of science abilities to root and mez to wreak havoc. Used well and that's show stopping.

Are science ships able to drop an opponent's shields like an escort? Obviously not. Escorts are all about burst damage. But you won't find a science ship popping by just looking at it like an escort either.

Clearly its all about balancing which ships you have, and the degree of certain ship types on the opposing side changes the effectiveness of it as well, but generaly speaking a fed fleet where sci ships have replaced cruisers will win 9/10. Garuntee it.

Obviously my point of view is strictly as a cruiser captain here, I don't fly anything else, but Escorts don't bother me at all - in fact I enjoy fighting them because I can kill them so easily. I have to be having a really bad day for an escort to defeat me 1on1. Cruisers a pain because there is obviously very little in it and, generaly speaking, its pretty difficult for 1 cruiser to defeat another 1vs1 unless you have a good 10 minutes to spare - but science ships are a nightmare for me. They prevent me from using my abilities, they can take my engines out and prevent me from having an escape plan, they can root me to the spot a hundred other different ways, they can disable my weapons, my shields, etc et, and they're almost as difficult to take down as a cruiser.

So yes Sci ships are without doubt the biggest threat.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 113
09-17-2010, 06:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vampiric_hoshi View Post
*snip*
I wonder if you are playing pre season 1.2 or before?

In my experience, Science Ships mostly survive by being ignored. They rely so much on Aux that they cannot deal any meaningful form of DPS - or that their control effects are too weak to affect anyone majorly.

They can beat Escorts (and BoPs) and other Science Vessels, but Cruisers are not really threatened by them.

I am not saying they are useless or don't make a good part in every succesful team. But they alone will never suffice. Not having a Cruiser will hurt a lot more than not having a Science ship.

Don't forget - Subnucleonic Beam and Sensor Scan are not Science Vessel abilities. They come from the Captain. They work just as well if you're in an Escort (if not better - if you subnuke an RSP in your Science ships, you still got only 6 Beams to wear those shields down. In an Escort, you got 3 dual heavy cannons for that.)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 114
09-17-2010, 08:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
I wonder if you are playing pre season 1.2 or before?

In my experience, Science Ships mostly survive by being ignored. They rely so much on Aux that they cannot deal any meaningful form of DPS - or that their control effects are too weak to affect anyone majorly.

They can beat Escorts (and BoPs) and other Science Vessels, but Cruisers are not really threatened by them.

I am not saying they are useless or don't make a good part in every succesful team. But they alone will never suffice. Not having a Cruiser will hurt a lot more than not having a Science ship.

Don't forget - Subnucleonic Beam and Sensor Scan are not Science Vessel abilities. They come from the Captain. They work just as well if you're in an Escort (if not better - if you subnuke an RSP in your Science ships, you still got only 6 Beams to wear those shields down. In an Escort, you got 3 dual heavy cannons for that.)
1vs1 I can handle pretty much anything, but because of the various mezzes (I'm talking about things like target subsystem, high level tractorbeam and the cosmic string thing), they're more of an annoyance to me than any other ship.

But I am talking more about a science vessel accompanied by another vessel.

I can handle 2 cruisers fairly well. I can handle 2 escorts fairly well. I can handle 1 escort and 1 cruiser fairly well. But 1 sci and 1 cruiser, or 1 sci and 1 escort, and because of the great er ability to mez me, I am less able to handle that. We're talking something like a 30% less chance of survivable compared to 2 of any other ships.

Through 2 sci and an escort, or 2 sci and a cruiser, and my chances of survivable drop by over 60% more.

No other ship makes that kind of difference.

So again I am not saying a single science ship will dominate a battle - I am saying that 2 or more science ships make far more of an impact compared to 2 or more cruisers.

Obviously I am massively generalising here as there are always exceptions to this. Multiple tactical officers all attacking one player regardless of what ship they are flying is probably the most OP battle you can fight in for example ... but generaly speaking, a Science ship + whatever is a more deadly combination than whatever + whatever - and its a combination that the KDF cannot match (because no KDF ship has a sci vessel's mix of shields, hull, turn, target sub systems etc).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 115
09-17-2010, 11:48 AM
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by vampiric_hoshi View Post

So again I am not saying a single science ship will dominate a battle - I am saying that 2 or more science ships make far more of an impact compared to 2 or more cruisers.


Thats for true. Science may be weak by themselves, but teamed they are a deciding factor towards victory when played and supported well.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 116
09-17-2010, 09:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thagmort
The only true instant WIN in this game is achieved through teamwork and great team play. A ship doesnt win battles. BO abilities dont win battles. A proper build, while it can help, doesnt flat-out win a battle. It's the one thing that Klink players accel at.... Teamwork, that wins battles. QA'PLA!
The true difference between winning and losing, regardless of faction. The factions are balanced (though lets be honest, the Federation is now the OPed faction, but who cares), the truth comes down to if you pub and don't team up, your screwed. Federation PvP requires working in teams, if you go solo, your screwed, on the KDF side I will say we had in the past a little more slack on this, but with all the new stuff the Feds got, when you enter PvP, if you don't all group up, you will lose. This goes for both sides.

I would like to say I have been having some great PvP games on both factions lately. Games in Arena ending with 15v14 final scores more often, however I do love the occasional where a Fed player thinks because he bought a new ship on the C-Store he is going to win and goes rogue and we wipe the floor with them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 117
09-17-2010, 10:41 PM
what would tickle me is if the star trek 6 bop fired a torpedo like the tricobalt while cloaked, with a few differences

the torpedo would be normal enough, not able to be shot down
the torpedo would be phased so that it completely ignores shields
the torpedo base damage would be around 20,000 at 51, so if it crits, the target dies
the torpedo would have a cooldown no longer then 2 minutes

this wouldnt be outragiously abusable since it wouldnt be a rapid fire weapon, but it would be usefull since it would badly wound if not kill your target depending on a lucky crit. for those who would cry that its way to powerfull, dont forget the nebula comes out before or at the same time, and we wont be able to even cloak within 10 km of any fed within 10km of a nebula cruisers tachyon buff without our aux at 125 and luck or detection rolls keeping us hidden, so itll be dam hard to even shoot this torp off since we have to be cloaked to do it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 118
09-19-2010, 12:01 PM
eah i can already imagine how the hit and running bops ganking targets to death with several of such torpedoes wouldnt be abusable.... Why not many people would fly nebula, most BoP pilots would switch to that...
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