Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
09-08-2010, 12:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by superchum View Post
I don't think any of that is canon. I've never seen an episode state that. Or read in the encyclopedia or memory alpha any of that. Please cite your source?
The "uplift" is spelled out in soft canon from one of the books which I'm sorry I can't cite, harder canon is from DS9 Homefront, the best reference i can give you is the Memory Alpha religion link. There's also been some discussion on this in these threads in the past. Some it is open to interpretation, but here's a hard-canon quote for the reference to their uplift:
"With fire and steel did the gods forge the Klingon heart. So fiercely did it beat, so loud was the sound, that the gods cried out, 'On this day we have brought forth the strongest heart in all the heavens. None can stand before it without trembling at its strength.' But then the Klingon heart weakened, its steady rhythm faltered and the gods said, 'Why do you weaken so? We have made you the strongest in all of creation.'
I don't want to give the impression that the Klingons have never created anything, they do have scientists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varrangian View Post
IHow can we make a system where "the right of conquest" doesn't dissolve into theft? Not saying it cannot happen just that I'm not sure how to do it.
Sounds like a semantical problem. As long as who you took it from knows who you are and has the oppontunity to fight (if they want) it's not theft. So, technically any mission where you kill your opponents and take it isn't theft, it's conquest.

Of course, that's not to say that with subjugation doesn't come responsibility. The Klingon Empire has brought many of the weaker races into their Empire. They get protection and the opportunity to serve.

You may also remember Worf's line: "Klingons do not 'pursue relationships.' They conquer that which they desire."
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
09-08-2010, 12:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by StarbasePrime
The "uplift" is spelled out in soft canon from one of the books which I'm sorry I can't cite, harder canon is from DS9 Homefront, the best reference i can give you is the Memory Alpha religion link. There's also been some discussion on this in these threads in the past. Some it is open to interpretation, but here's a hard-canon quote for the reference to their uplift:
"With fire and steel did the gods forge the Klingon heart. So fiercely did it beat, so loud was the sound, that the gods cried out, 'On this day we have brought forth the strongest heart in all the heavens. None can stand before it without trembling at its strength.' But then the Klingon heart weakened, its steady rhythm faltered and the gods said, 'Why do you weaken so? We have made you the strongest in all of creation.'
I don't want to give the impression that the Klingons have never created anything, they do have scientists.
The creation myth reads like a myth. Memory Alpha also states clearly that the Klingon Empire was a spacefaring race that expanded because its homeworld was resource poor and they focused on exploration and conquer.

You are correct, all hard canon sources are very much open to interpretation. Soft canon sources don't carry as much weight.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
09-08-2010, 12:35 PM
There's always some truth buried in the heart of myth - and, the two statements are not necessarily at odds. Certainly, it's not the first bit of canon that ever seemed to disagreed.

The hard canon is littered with references to their "creators". For example, Worf's line:
Our gods are dead. Ancient Klingon warriors slew them a millennium ago.


Which to me also means that as a sapient species, Klingons haven't been around as long as humans (a millennium isn't so long ago after all). You may also recall Worf talking about the "thrill" of the hunt, it seemed pretty clear to me this was an "animal" memory/instinct - it goes to their origins.

Also, as a proud Klingon, I think I'd tell aliens the "official" Memory Alpha version of the story and leave off the bit about how "we were once slaves". :p


Regardless, for the purpose of this thread, I still suggest Conquest is a perfectly legitimate technique as "an alternative to crafting".
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
09-08-2010, 01:40 PM
I think its a rather simple solution, the KDF can do reverse engineering. Just like in Champs, you can break your loot down, doing research on it to advance in crafting skill.

So pick up a green hyper impulse engine, you can sell it or break it down and learn something. Maybe you get basic components after breaking it down like in Champs or maybe just generic knowledge that can be applied to upgrade basic stuff.

Components would clearly be easier to come by than the Federation side, but at a cost, basically reducing your credit income. It would also give some use to all that trash that sits on the exchange if the KDF could buy it and break it down to reverse engineer it.


Now you can argue semantics and call this theft, but honestly it fits the Empire pretty well. They have not been represented as the most ingenious of species, but their technological advancement seems to come from utilizing technology from other species, conquered or otherwise, and applying it to their own uses. "Hey they have a good idea, how can we use it?"

Other than Chang's BOP I can't think of many instances where the Klingons were shown to have come up with something on their own. And there isn't anything wrong with that. Reverse engineering or copycat engineering is very common for us, we see something we never thought of and try to make it work on our own. And getting your hands on a piece of that technology helps that happen.

I think it makes sense to think that the Klingons aren't a species at the forefront of technological advancement, but they aren't stupid either, and they won't get left behind because they are very good at reverse engineering the things other species come up with.



Now the Orions, however, have been represented as a very advanced species several times over in canon, so with them on the KDF side, they could always be in charge of a brand new KDF R&D department that does things closer to the way the Federation does, with true scientific discovery, which is another option.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 15
09-08-2010, 04:02 PM
nausicaans are the most technilogically advance species of the entire kdf forces. if crafting was gonna come in id expect it to be something they have invented.
Lt. Commander
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# 16
09-09-2010, 06:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxrocks
"...Hey they have a good idea, how can we use it?" ....
Hmmm, wait - I know! It's a weapon!

I sort of like that idea (I've even used it before) as it not only involves Conquest, but would give KDF players something else to do. But I've always worried it might be impractical as the technique doesn't exist in the game (I keep thinking of deconstruction as "schematics"). But, you could do as a "trade-in" system like Memory Alpha; you just need to change the verbiage a bit.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
09-09-2010, 06:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by StarbasePrime
The "uplift" is spelled out in soft canon from one of the books which I'm sorry I can't cite, harder canon is from DS9 Homefront, the best reference i can give you is the Memory Alpha religion link. There's also been some discussion on this in these threads in the past. Some it is open to interpretation, but here's a hard-canon quote for the reference to their uplift:
"With fire and steel did the gods forge the Klingon heart. So fiercely did it beat, so loud was the sound, that the gods cried out, 'On this day we have brought forth the strongest heart in all the heavens. None can stand before it without trembling at its strength.' But then the Klingon heart weakened, its steady rhythm faltered and the gods said, 'Why do you weaken so? We have made you the strongest in all of creation.'
I don't want to give the impression that the Klingons have never created anything, they do have scientists.

The "uplift" comes from Starfleet Battles/Starfleet Command, both of which are not even soft canon I'm afraid.
There it is explained that the Klingons were taken to the stars by a species called the Old Kings, however the Starfleet Battles license means that anything developed for that game is not even soft canon, and even means it can be called Star Trek, but it is a seperat universe.
Starfleet Command contained the same history section for the Klingons as Star Fleet Battles because it is based on it, but it is still less than soft-canon.

Insteat maybe you'd like to take a look here:
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Klingon_history

Particularly this section:

"The origins of the Klingon Empire began in around 854 AD, the so-called "Heroic Age of Qo'noS", when Kahless the Unforgettable united the many warring tribes of Qo'noS. Under Kahless's leadership, the Klingons began to expand their empire across the planet and out into the galaxy following the development of warp drive in 922 AD."

Which means there was already a Klingon Empre before they were conquered by the Hur'q, which means they did not get Warp Drive from them, but rather developed it themselves.
Lt. Commander
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# 18
09-09-2010, 10:00 AM
I'm not arguing with your facts, just that they don't mean the other information isn't also correct. In essence, it was all long ago and it ends up to just arguing religion.
Lt. Commander
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# 19
09-09-2010, 11:05 AM
I other words you've just pulled out the religious card to keep your idea they got warp drive from someone else standing despite the fact that they developed it themselves.
Lt. Commander
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# 20
09-09-2010, 01:20 PM
Think of it more as that debate has been done on other threads and leads the main topic of this thread astray.
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