Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
09-10-2010, 12:48 AM
I believe you started to derail it with you repeated "our gods" stuff and you idea of the Klingons as tech robbers.
So I try to give sources for the facts that say the Klingons develope stuff themselves and you say I derail the thread, very good.

Back on topic:
My proposal for a Klingon version of crafting that may not differ that much from Memeory Alpha is still the same it used to be a couple of months ago.
"Rura Penthe" was called a "Gulag" in Star trek 6 and the Soviets had a secret Gulag system for imprisoned scientists.
The living conditions were far better than in the regular Gulags and the prisoners were tasked with the development of technologies important to the state.
Why not use that.
Currently we do not have security clearance to go to Rura Penthe, maybe there is a reason for that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharashka
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
09-10-2010, 01:07 AM
Something Klingon only? Something to 'replace' crafting?

Conquerable Space.

The feds have explorable space, we should have the variation. "Separate but equal..."

If the Klingon Empire is at war with the Federation, then it is safe to assume that it is at war (on a smaller scale, and clearly winning) with various civilizations that didn't have the luxury of being part of a larger organization.

Those civilizations could be in that 'explorable space' just ripe for the taking.

A variation on that idea is to have 'winnable areas' depending on how good klingon players are at winning important battles in that area... perhaps being reset every so often.

Again that's just an idea, I know it's not entirely feasible... then again I am not a programmer, but it would be fun, would keep players active feeling like they're doing something for the empire on a border where the federation has no influence, and overall have something unique to the klingon faction (a la the federation's diplomatic program).



"We have Klingon diplomats sure... they just have sharp weapons and big warships in orbit."
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
09-10-2010, 01:11 AM
Who are buliding the klingon ships? Do you really think they have conquered their whole fleet from the romulans, over and over again?

As far as I know, there is a warrior class, but the Klingons also have workers, farmers and of course scientists.
So, there should be no problem giving the Klingons Crafting; only that the warriors do not do it themself. Maybe they just give something to the engineers and/or scientists and get in exchange the crafted/upgraded thing.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
09-10-2010, 02:10 AM
The Mempa V Science Institute would be nice

http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Sc...ute_on_Mempa_V

Or if Cryptic actually wants to do something interesting why not add the worlds of the Klingon allies why not place crafting there?
Maybe something as unusual as placing specific kinds of crafting on each planet.
For example weapons and shields could be made by the Gorn, Nausiccans could make engines etc.
Don't misunderstand this idea:
Everyone can build a disruptor or an impulse engine, but perhaps the best of the best of the Klingon allies' scientists happen to be on/from this or that particular planet in this generation.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
09-10-2010, 07:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miramae
Who are buliding the klingon ships? Do you really think they have conquered their whole fleet from the romulans, over and over again?
It's hard canon that Klingons have scientists and construction facilities. No one that's made the "Conquest" argument has said otherwise so far (only those that oppose the conquest argument have brought this up, as if Conquest somehow precluded the other).

Not positive about this, but as an aside, I believe some ships the Klingons use did start as Romulan ships. Once they've got something, I assume they're good enough to take it apart, make new ones, and add improvements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miramae
As far as I know, there is a warrior class, but the Klingons also have workers, farmers and of course scientists.
So, there should be no problem giving the Klingons Crafting; only that the warriors do not do it themself. Maybe they just give something to the engineers and/or scientists and get in exchange the crafted/upgraded thing.
Some scientists are actually even Klingon. I suspect a lot more of those workers and scientists were those alien races cheerfully absorbed into the Klingon Empire by conquest (which sure beats being destroyed).

I don't think anyone on the thread has a problem with Klingons getting crafted goods, they just want a way that increases immersion for the players - who are after all playing the "elite" warrior class. Conquest seems a good fit for that to me, but some don't seem to like it because "stealing" isn't "honorable" and they can't separate "taking" from "theft" (they probably don't use cloaking either :p). I'm okay with different opinions, what's a warrior without spirit? But, then I can make the distinction between the two and I 've given a good accounting for it in prior posts. At least Conquest is a practical alternative idea, hopefully we'll see more new & creative ideas rather than more bashing of the "Conquest" one.

Speaking of which, here's an alternative. They could just clone the Memory Alpha system. Sure, some Klingons wouldn't touch it because it's beneath them. But the KDF isn't just Klingons, and the other member races might enjoy a bit of crafting now and then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
I believe you started to derail it with you repeated "our gods" stuff and you idea of the Klingons as tech robbers.
Please, I don't mind a good argument that's on topic, but lets not start making up stuff that I said. My last post didn't do any "you started it" silliness and I've never called them "robbers". Also, that Klingons "Take what they want", and that they have taken "technology by force", and "conquered" is all hard canon. I do not call them "robbers", I call them "Conquerors" and the distinction is very explicit in my posts. The bit about the gods was in reference to a request for a citation regarding the "uplift" and little to do with the rest (which has never been proven untrue). But if you want to discuss Klingon Origins please start another thread, play fair, and PM me about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
...add the worlds of the Klingon allies why not place crafting there? Maybe something as unusual as placing specific kinds of crafting on each planet. For example weapons and shields could be made by the Gorn, Nausiccans could make engines etc.
I like this idea too. Some Klingon purists would say that "crafting" is beneath them, but as I said earlier the KDF isn't just Klingons.

I still like the Conquest idea best so far. It gives Klingons a reason for "exploration" missions and is somewhat synonymous with the Federation as they tend to get a lot of the anomalies they use for crafting via exploration. The big difference of course is that in the Federation you know what you're getting for your trade-ins and can plan for it. You could still do the selection mechanism as you would with any mission reward, but the "planning" bit is a bit harder (I can just see the mission description, "The Marins of Delta 3 have developed a new shield technology and think that with it they can secede from the Empire. Go teach them the error of their ways, bring the technology to us, and execute their leaders").

Edit: BTW, if we must have just one location to craft, your idea of "Rura Penthe" is an excellant one for the reasons you described.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
09-10-2010, 10:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
Back on topic:
My proposal for a Klingon version of crafting that may not differ that much from Memeory Alpha is still the same it used to be a couple of months ago.
"Rura Penthe" was called a "Gulag" in Star trek 6 and the Soviets had a secret Gulag system for imprisoned scientists.
The living conditions were far better than in the regular Gulags and the prisoners were tasked with the development of technologies important to the state.
Why not use that.
Currently we do not have security clearance to go to Rura Penthe, maybe there is a reason for that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharashka
I like the Gulag style idea, it also sort of fits well with the scenes we saw in ENT of the Klingon Scientist. He certainly seemed to be working in less than ideal conditions.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
09-10-2010, 10:19 AM
I was watching DS9 "Once more Unto the Breach" again and there are a couple of things from that, that I think suggest that Klingon crafting is viable. First, Kor's story of taking apart and putting back together the cloaking device in the TOS era. He also mentions Klingon Engineers (Engineering is applied science, and basically "craft" in a crude sense).

Worf's plan to stop the Jem'Hadar ships and pull them out of warp was scientific in nature, and at first I dismissed it as a product of his time in Star Fleet, but then Kor understood the plan and was able to execute it without Worf being present, so clearly their mind comprehend these kinds of things.

I'm leaning more and more towards a system the is crafting, but perhaps more about "practical" crafting than anything as involved as Memory Alpha.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
09-10-2010, 10:21 AM
I'm digging this thread, but please, let's not let it devolve into an argument. Let's have a discussion about what you would like to see from Klingon Crafting.

Thanks,

Stormshade
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
09-10-2010, 10:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by StormShade
I'm digging this thread, but please, let's not let it devolve into an argument. Let's have a discussion about what you would like to see from Klingon Crafting.

Thanks,

Stormshade
Thanks, and I want to say that I know your job is a big one, but your continued presence here in the Klingon forums is appreciated.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
09-10-2010, 11:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by StarbasePrime
I like this idea too. Some Klingon purists would say that "crafting" is beneath them, but as I said earlier the KDF isn't just Klingons.
Including the homeworlds for the Gorn, Nausicaans and Orions and then separating the crafting tech into three different areas, allowing Klingon Warriors to gain advanced technology upgrades from there allies is a wonderful idea. It would also add new social hubs, each of the three new planets would naturally be very unique, compared to the Klingon planets.


Quote:
Originally Posted by StarbasePrime
I still like the Conquest idea best so far. It gives Klingons a reason for "exploration" missions and is somewhat synonymous with the Federation as they tend to get a lot of the anomalies they use for crafting via exploration. The big difference of course is that in the Federation you know what you're getting for your trade-ins and can plan for it. You could still do the selection mechanism as you would with any mission reward, but the "planning" bit is a bit harder (I can just see the mission description, "The Marins of Delta 3 have developed a new shield technology and think that with it they can secede from the Empire. Go teach them the error of their ways, bring the technology to us, and execute their leaders").
Remember these two Enterprise episodes, "Fortunate Son" and "Marauders"?

Well there's canon evidence in the first episode I linked that shows Nausicaan pirates attacking / raiding a Y-class freighter for cargo, so there's one idea that could be viable, involving raids that not only utilise space combat, but also ground combat (if the Devs could produce a small freighter interior). You could acquire anomaly samples or possible (which I would prefer) acquire various resources (that are not anomalies) to hand over to the scientists on the Gorn, Nausicaan and Orion homeworlds. Yes I'm suggesting scrapping the use of anomalies for the Klingons, but not scrapping how the system works, just basically replacing the names of the anomaly items to the names of various resources.

I also don't see why this suggestion above couldn't work for the other races within the KDF, so whether you're a Klingon Warrior, a Gorn, a Nausicaan, or a Orion, you can do as suggested above.


There is also canon evidence in the second episode I linked that shows a Klingon ship arriving at a small mining colony, and the Klingon crew expect to be simply given all the deuterium reserves.

If you are given something, you have not stolen it, so that solves all of the conjecture about stealing on page #1. Now this could easily work just as it does in the episode, much the same as my first suggestion, but with a twist. You would beam down to a mining colony expecting to be given a gift and proceed to talk to the workers. There would be a chance for the resource reserve to be completely dry, a chance for the resource reserve to lower than expected by the KDF or a chance for the resource reserve to be at the expected level.

Depending on the resource reserve level, the players choices would change and the outcome would change.

There could also be a chance that a rival faction race could step in and intervene, much as the crew of the Enterprise did in the episode, if you use your imagination and consider the STO engine possibilities, I think this could work very well and be extremely unique to the Klingon Faction.



Quote:
Originally Posted by StarbasePrime
Edit: BTW, if we must have just one location to craft, your idea of "Rura Penthe" is an excellant one for the reasons you described.
I personally only see "Rura Penthe" as a mining prison and wouldn't want to see it used for the purposes of "crafting", but for a new gameplay element, involving prisoners of war as well as story based missions.
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