Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 41
10-06-2010, 03:56 PM
there are mmo out there without a "taunt" powr, the latest being ***. however in ***, almost all the moves of the tank class generate extra threat on top of its base damage. in this game threat is simply damage based, hence the reason why escort will always get agro.

read.. quote i;ve been trying to get across for quite a few post. clearly ppl dont read.

Quote:
. i also dont understand why you seem to be against a taunt like power, if you read the OP. the OP only ask why there is no taunt power in this game, and i never actully said this game NEED a extra power that is just taunt. i said

Quote:
a simple fix is to simply give a cruiser an innate 50% bonus on threat (another mmo speak, threat equals perceived (not actual) damage modified by some factor)
which have no effect on pvp or solo pve.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 42
10-06-2010, 04:59 PM
How about we look at it from this perspective. Is star trek itself a triangle system? Of course not, I know, but I'm using it in the sense that big cruisers are designed to take the brunt of an assault. C'mon, how many times have cruiser and escort captains pictured and wished this scenario to come into play in their gameplay.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VwAln8rkvk

Skip to 3:35

I know that when I was playing an escort, there were times that I was getting ripped apart, and I whished that the nearby cruiser could take some heat off of me, and when I have my cruiser I could come in and save my fleetmates with something more realistic with a green beam that can magically reshape matter to heal their hull.

Think of it in terms of cannon, where ships that were seriously wounded needed a visit to drydock. It was more tactically sound to divert weapons fire to the ships who could take it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 43
10-06-2010, 06:38 PM
I would post my feelings in this thread but it is quite clearly pointless. I think I may just repeat post this comment over and over on the incorrect preumption no-one is reading it.

Well ok, I will say something after all because the troll inside me cannot resist.

In other MMOs staying alive is very important. If you die during a fight you cannot be recovered usually. This is one of the cheap and easy ways they make end game content harder. This is not the case in STO as you just respawn. This removes the need for an obsession with tanking and aggro. It also removes a lot of arguing and blaming of tanks/healers/dps over aggro within a group. Which I, for one, am very happy about. In STO on some level you just have to look afetr yourself. Your friends an heal but if you are going down it is your job to get yourself out of trouble.

Lets imagine a world in which cruisers get a 'hit me' button.

Combat begins - cruiser presses his nice big I want you to shoot me button. Becaues he is a smart guy he binds a key for this to his third mouse button and presses it continuouly because he knows everyone will blame him if the battle is not easy. All the best tanks do this.

Another cruiser targets that ship and between them they spam heal and are almost indestructable. He is smart also so he binds his various heals to buttons 1,2,3,4,5 and presses them in sequence. He knows if the cruiser dies everyone will blame him for bing a crap healer.

Escorts drop engine power to a crawl and point their dual heavy cannons right at the big nasty enemy. It is very important that they keep very, very still otherwise they may not constantly have the enemy in 45' arc. they know they have to press their 'do more damage buttons' very fast or the combat will take forever. THis will make failure their fault also so they concentrate very hard on pressing 4 carefully chosen macros.

At some point all the cruiser heals are on cooldown, but its okay because the escorts have a couple of hazard emiters too so they cover in the gap.This is a critical moment for the Fleet because they are not 'proper healers' and they don't know what they are doing. The number 7 heal button is futher than the span of a normal hand and sometimes the stupid dps classes forget they have to do two things instead of one. This is why you need ventrillo so you can scream at those idiot DPS people who really should go play ********* and L2P.

Eveeryone fires straight ahead until the enemy dies. They then argue about which ship needs th best equipment first because it is very important that nobody does anything wrong or everybody dies and they all fall out and go back to WoW.

... this, I think we will all agree - would be an awesome gameplay experience considerably improving the current fluid and dynaimic system of ships flying in and out of combat executing a range of options as the situation demands.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 44
10-06-2010, 08:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueGothic View Post
C'mon, how many times have cruiser and escort captains pictured and wished this scenario to come into play in their gameplay.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VwAln8rkvk
Hah! I knew you meant this even before clicking this link.

Then again, you could argue that the Defiant's weapons were offline. When the escort stops shooting and the cruiser does a Heavy Yield photon barrage, this might work in STO, too.

I agree anyways - to an extent. Rather than giving cruisers an easymode "Shoot Me Plox" button, I'd prefer to see proper LoS and collision mechanics. That's right: If you want to tank, you damn well better get that heap 'o metal moving and maneuver yourself between the enemy and that poor damaged escort in order to intercept any shots. Takes a bit more skill than pressing a button and looks a lot better, too. AND it works in PvP as well.

That is what I'd love to see in STO. Or do you think that the scene from that video would've looked better if the Enterprise showed up without shielding the Defiant, and the Borg Cube would let go off the little escort for no reason other than Picard pressing an aggro button? :p

Quote:
Originally Posted by The.Restless.Kaiser
... this, I think we will all agree - would be an awesome gameplay experience considerably improving the current fluid and dynaimic system of ships flying in and out of combat executing a range of options as the situation demands.
Well said, sir.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 45
10-06-2010, 10:19 PM
I'm not saying that there directly needs to be an aggro button. I really like what you suggested with the LoS mechanics. I'm not familiar with computer code and game design, it that even feasible? How hard will it be for the devs to put into place, expecially once they already have teh game in motion?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 46
10-07-2010, 01:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The.Restless.Kaiser
*snip*
I was amused.

Another flaw in the typical MMO aggro mechanics is - they don't work on players.

So the above scenario would play exactly like that in PvE. And in PvP, it's totally different. Suddenly that "super-tank" is useless because he can only heal himself and poses no actual threat.

That's why I say - if you want aggro mechanics, pick a mechanic that doesn't create "virtual" damage that only counts for calculating aggro. Create a mechanic that creates _real_ damage if the tank is ignored. Or reduces damage if the tank is ignored. Everything else is useless.
If a Cruiser that is not being fired upon can inflict damage like an Escort, then you can have a working aggro mechanic that still allows a dynamic flow of combat in PvE and works for PvP, too.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 47
10-07-2010, 02:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WEII
i have been posting about this on and off since release. a mmo without any form of taunt simply wont work.
Please stop posting in 'obnoxious'.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 48
10-07-2010, 10:48 AM
i;ve already posted all the point i wanted to make. all the argument so far can be answered by one of the point i've already made. so a final quote and be the end of it, if ppl cant be assed to read the post before posting rubbish. i'll come back to it after season 3.

an final point. i hasnt got the heart to tell Ravenstein how wrong he is a few post back.

champion online, the other game made by cryptic. it can be said that CO give player more freedom on choosing power and thus it is very easy to make a tank mage (which can also heal). ofc any tank mage wont be as good as a pure healer/tank/dps player due to the fact no all power and slotted defensive scale to the super stat, but nevertheless it is good enough for the pitiful end game content, and a pro player would have spotted the overlaps in the SS of some of the tanking and dps power/defensive.

in CO, which i repeat is most likely the least trinity of all the recent MMO, as anyone can make a tank mage with heals the game still play to the trinity model in the background, it is done in term of "stances". the tanking stance (guardian) have innate bonus to HP and threat (ie like the cruiser in sto, but sto dont have the innate threat bonus). the dps stance (avenger) have a innate penalty to HP and threat (ie like the escort in sto, but sto dont have the innite threat penalty). also more can be said about the slotted defensive, but i give up trying to explain it you bunch. enough said there are defensive that are clearly dps and some tanking and some healing. aint it now clear that to is missing something.

Quote:
looks like i will have to spell this out to you, clearly too much to ask for you to use your head a little.

1. the 40 mins infected is referring to, i know the game well. in orde to do a 40min infected you will have to make no mistakes, no group wipes, no bad pulls, no boss resets and etc... or in another word, any trick that can be used to make the STF quicker, i know it. the 15 tries of infected is simply referring to that i got bored of it only after 15 tires, it is too much of a child's play.

2. the quote below only said "LONGER", i never once said that STF are impossible without a taunt like power, only LONGER.

Quote:
5. the whole fight eventually take a lot longer than it should, if only the cruiser can consistently take the agro.

read it, LONGER than it should, because cruiser cant always keep agro does it force the dps class to run away.
3. any pro mmo player will know, every mmo eventually get harder. with this game in mind, we can expect that STF will EVENTUALLY get harder. maybe they will go the simple route of more HP and DPS to the boss, or the more advanced route of diffcult scripted events. when the STF gets harder, you will need some sort of taunt power, as the dev might allow the boss to 3 shot a non tank player, all mmo eventually make the boss so powerful that it will 3 shot any on tank.

Quote:
eventually when sto make a proper raid (ie not a 5 man instance), maybe a very hard fleet action, there will be a need for taunt power.

4.
eventully
4. i dont understand why you are even arguing you point. what is your point exactly. that this name is not the standard trinity design? then why does the escort have a huge innate bonus to dps and the science ship have a huge innate bonus to shield?

5. i also dont understand why you seem to be against a taunt like power, if you read the OP. the OP only ask why there is no taunt power in this game, and i never actully said this game NEED a extra power that is just taunt. i said

Quote:
a simple fix is to simply give a cruiser an innate 50% bonus on threat (another mmo speak, threat equals perceived (not actual) damage modified by some factor)
which have no effect on pvp or solo pve.

6. you must be one of those ppl who whine about "why are we having more ship instead of more content". or sother silly rant. if you dont want to use it, you dont have to, we are not forcing you. but on the other hand, what is the harm of adding it.

7. finally. eventully the dev is here is please hardcore players. and hardcore player want a challenge, which mean harder STF and working as a team. what sort of team is it when the DPS class cant shake agro and shout for the tank to take agro, but the tank can do anything to help.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 49
10-07-2010, 10:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
I was amused.

Another flaw in the typical MMO aggro mechanics is - they don't work on players.

So the above scenario would play exactly like that in PvE. And in PvP, it's totally different. Suddenly that "super-tank" is useless because he can only heal himself and poses no actual threat.

That's why I say - if you want aggro mechanics, pick a mechanic that doesn't create "virtual" damage that only counts for calculating aggro. Create a mechanic that creates _real_ damage if the tank is ignored. Or reduces damage if the tank is ignored. Everything else is useless.
If a Cruiser that is not being fired upon can inflict damage like an Escort, then you can have a working aggro mechanic that still allows a dynamic flow of combat in PvE and works for PvP, too.
answer already posted. threat does not equals taunt.

Quote:
5. i also dont understand why you seem to be against a taunt like power, if you read the OP. the OP only ask why there is no taunt power in this game, and i never actully said this game NEED a extra power that is just taunt. i said

Quote:
a simple fix is to simply give a cruiser an innate 50% bonus on threat (another mmo speak, threat equals perceived (not actual) damage modified by some factor)
which have no effect on pvp or solo pve.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 50
10-07-2010, 10:54 AM
Quote:
In other MMOs staying alive is very important. If you die during a fight you cannot be recovered usually. This is one of the cheap and easy ways they make end game content harder. This is not the case in STO as you just respawn. This removes the need for an obsession with tanking and aggro. It also removes a lot of arguing and blaming of tanks/healers/dps over aggro within a group. Which I, for one, am very happy about. In STO on some level you just have to look afetr yourself. Your friends an heal but if you are going down it is your job to get yourself out of trouble.
my answer to that already posted.

Quote:
3. any pro mmo player will know, every mmo eventually get harder. with this game in mind, we can expect that STF will EVENTUALLY get harder. maybe they will go the simple route of more HP and DPS to the boss, or the more advanced route of diffcult scripted events. when the STF gets harder, you will need some sort of taunt power, as the dev might allow the boss to 3 shot a non tank player, all mmo eventually make the boss so powerful that it will 3 shot any on tank.
also to add, i expect that the death penalty (along with the elite mode bonus to loot) will be added to the STF. hence you wont want to die as often anymore.

also to add, we had be lucky that the repop point in all the space STF is vert close to the action, the ground (ie cure) repop point would be more typical of mmo, that is you will have to run to get back to the action. thus you may not want to die so often anymore. this is sort of linked to the quote above, we can be sure that "the hive" will be the hardest STF yet.
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