Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
10-13-2010, 08:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Data
Aux is used to strengthen the cloaks stealth. The drain/recharge would be dependent on skill points and level. If you have FBP 3 and full specced into it you would have lets say initial drain drain of -5 for 3 seconds when it starts to recharge but if you have FBP 2 it would have drain of -5 for 5 seconds then recharge and so on and so forth. All it would do is make people be judicious with use of multiple aux skills. If you want to use 5 skills that are aux heavy you can expect a -25 drain with various rates of recharge to correspond to the various skill levels and points specc'd the numbers I am using are purely SWAGs for discussion purposes but I hope illustrates the mechanic I think would work overall and help PvP become less of a resist spamming it has become lately.

How does a cloaking thread turn into a full fledged nerf-science-some-more thread? No, just no.


On topic, the only thing that I think needs to be done with cloak is to remove the decloaking damage buff. It is completely and utterly unnecessary. The surprise factor is more than enough to do some serious damage before the enemy can react.

However, I've said it plenty of times, cloak detection needs to be very much refined into a much more in depth minigame of sorts. As it is, cloak detection is just too binary. You either find them, or you have no clue whatsoever. There needs to be a gray area in there, where cloak detection knows they are in the area, but can't pinpoint them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
10-13-2010, 09:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxrocks
How does a cloaking thread turn into a full fledged nerf-science-some-more thread? No, just no.


On topic, the only thing that I think needs to be done with cloak is to remove the decloaking damage buff. It is completely and utterly unnecessary. The surprise factor is more than enough to do some serious damage before the enemy can react.

However, I've said it plenty of times, cloak detection needs to be very much refined into a much more in depth minigame of sorts. As it is, cloak detection is just too binary. You either find them, or you have no clue whatsoever. There needs to be a gray area in there, where cloak detection knows they are in the area, but can't pinpoint them.
I realize that you were not referring to me with the nerf science comment, but just for the record I have Sci captains on both sides and they are my favorite toons. I will leAve the science discussion for another thrad.

I agree that the damage buff just out of cloak is a little odd, but I don't think removing it helps solve the wait-fest problem FvK or the game-of-chicken in KvK that sees everyone cloak.

I agree with your suggestion to improve cloak detection. I have been calling for that since Beta and the Beta version of Mask Enegy Signature. The Devs soluion on that onewas to disable the power for many months without discussion, rework, or even an ETA for a fix. I can't see them doing that to cloaks or even MES now, but I've not been impressed with their previous stealth/invisible solutions.

I've proposed a passive boost to12k distance for sci SHIPS as an inherent (full disclosure my fed Sci Captain flies an Intrepid Refit and a Defiant refit) rather than BTSx level 1 skills. Ive also proposed a sci BOff skill that boosts detction to 7/9/11k distance for 10 seconds. Regardless, effective cloak detection should be more readily available if we intend to leave the current cloak with incentives to play the waiting game.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
10-13-2010, 09:56 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Data
Aux is used to strengthen the cloaks stealth. The drain/recharge would be dependent on skill points and level.
I was unaware of this and have seen no difference in effects based off of low (25) aux. It seems to me that the cloaking should work off of current shield power levels instead, since that is the power scrificed in order to use cloaking.

Quote:
If you have FBP 3 and full specced into it you would have lets say initial drain drain of -5 for 3 seconds when it starts to recharge but if you have FBP 2 it would have drain of -5 for 5 seconds then recharge and so on and so forth. All it would do is make people be judicious with use of multiple aux skills. If you want to use 5 skills that are aux heavy you can expect a -25 drain with various rates of recharge to correspond to the various skill levels and points specc'd
This will only further nerf science players and any player using cloaking, while leaving Engineering completely alone.

Quote:
the numbers I am using are purely SWAGs for discussion purposes but I hope illustrates the mechanic I think would work overall and help PvP become less of a resist spamming it has become lately.
Why when anybody develops a productive means of increasing thier survial within the rules of any game, other feel the need to nerf it?
Resistant stacking/spamming is only a good defense for as long as said powers are in effect and only as good in effect in proportion to how much Aux power is pumped into them.
AuxDamp 15 second duration / 30second recovery
AuxSif 10 sec duration / 15 second recovery
TSS 15 second duration / 45 second recovery
PH 15 second duration / 45 second recovery
So on an average of 10-15 seconds of better damage resistance versus a 30-45 second cooldown is hardly game upsetting or unbalancing and does not need a nerf to make it less effective. All vessel can use these abilites to some degree and nerfing thier use will only push STO back into "Engineering online" leaving the Tactical and Science classes as very squishy and squishy again.
Considering that all the resistant buffs can be removed to some degree by APB, TB, GW, SNB, PSW , EWP and other ingame abilities, I see no issue with thier use ingame.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxrocks
How does a cloaking thread turn into a full fledged nerf-science-some-more thread? No, just no.
First yiou have to feel that your gameplay is not what it should be for your favorite class and that is a problem that lies in the other class archetypes and not your own choice of builds, skill, etc. Once establishing that your inability to perform as you think you should is not by any fault of your own (in your own mind) , you move to the forums and express the need (once again importance is inflated by ones own reasoning) that a change is needed for the betterment of the game as a whole (with little detrimental effects to one's own play style of choice) and continue to push said ideas hoping that other will see your brillaince (once again magnified in one's own mind) and implement them.
Of course I'm being caustic and snarky in my attitude but this is exactly what rational I feel is being justified everytime I see a potentially game changing and unneeed nerf.

Quote:
On topic, the only thing that I think needs to be done with cloak is to remove the decloaking damage buff. It is completely and utterly unnecessary. The surprise factor is more than enough to do some serious damage before the enemy can react.
As long as it is removed from all vessel who benefit from such a buff, I have no problems. Though I would like to see said vessel have a slight increase in Hull or Shield points to compensate.

Quote:
However, I've said it plenty of times, cloak detection needs to be very much refined into a much more in depth minigame of sorts. As it is, cloak detection is just too binary. You either find them, or you have no clue whatsoever. There needs to be a gray area in there, where cloak detection knows they are in the area, but can't pinpoint them.
I agree.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
10-13-2010, 10:08 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by VexusPrime
I agree that the damage buff just out of cloak is a little odd, but I don't think removing it helps solve the wait-fest problem FvK or the game-of-chicken in KvK that sees everyone cloak.
There is no cure for people acting like AH's in pvp. Nerfing the use of cloak will only extend the time fram of said matches even more becuase those cowardly Klingons who use such tactics as "wait griefing" will continue to do so and all that would be accomplished by said nerf is the slow death of the fun-factor of those who like cloaking and don't use it to "wait-grief".
Once the Nebula is ingame, it should be relatively easier form a well-teamed fedball to scoure the pvp arena's and discover any cloaked opponents. Which is another reason why I find cloak nerfs unneeded.

Quote:
I agree with your suggestion to improve cloak detection. I have been calling for that since Beta and the Beta version of Mask Enegy Signature. The Devs soluion on that onewas to disable the power for many months without discussion, rework, or even an ETA for a fix. I can't see them doing that to cloaks or even MES now, but I've not been impressed with their previous stealth/invisible solutions.

I've proposed a passive boost to12k distance for sci SHIPS as an inherent (full disclosure my fed Sci Captain flies an Intrepid Refit and a Defiant refit) rather than BTSx level 1 skills. Ive also proposed a sci BOff skill that boosts detction to 7/9/11k distance for 10 seconds. Regardless, effective cloak detection should be more readily available if we intend to leave the current cloak with incentives to play the waiting game.
As do I. Cloak detection is still too hit or miss and needs a better refinement. Even if you can't pinpoint an enemy in cloak, you should still be able to see an aproximantion of where said enemy may be located based on the strength of your cloak detection skills power setting. Perhaps such near hits could show up in the players HUD map as slow pulsing blips of undetermined ranges.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
10-13-2010, 11:40 AM
Actually a lot of the engineering powers use aux also, especially if they offer a resist, aux to SIF, Aux to ID, Aux to Batteries I am sure I missing a couple.

Roach i believe they made cloak detectability % based on aux levels when cloaked. I believe this was done for 1.2. I do not want to nerf nothing but make the game mechanic more consistent across the board. If they did weapon power similar to way aux worked everyone would cry. Maybe I am little jaded by the fact that there are skills that are supposed to counter things but do not in this game. Polarize hull doesn't counter tractor beams it has a CHANCE to counter tractor beams and other holds. Sci skills are the only thing that can be removed after the fact not negated. Building sci on the weapon drain mechanic would help, it wouldn't be nerf it would be a strategic modification.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
10-13-2010, 11:51 AM
It Could be argued that sci does work the way weapons systems do. Systems already share a common cool down. You can't chain two deflector skills such as say Tachyon and Energy siphon; for one example.

Weapons work by Instantly returning power when there cycle is done... so the short "no" global on the nrg weapon slots mean you have reduced damage.

Aux sci skills also instant return the power if you look at it that way. And just as you can't fire off all your torp tubes at once... you can't fire multiple sci skills out of one sytem. Torp tubes have a 3 second global most sci system skills trigger a 15 sec global (Def, EM, Sen)

However if I trigger a EM skill say Pol Hull it runns at my current power (returns the power instant like) and then I activate a DEF skill say tachyon same power level.

If your saying the power should slowly recharge like weapon power USED to... thats another thing.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
10-13-2010, 01:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Husanak View Post

If your saying the power should slowly recharge like weapon power USED to... thats another thing.


I am but the drain mitigated by skill points and the aux dependent skill level like FBP 1 would have the same drain slower recharge and FBP 2 would have the same drain a little faster recharge, FBP 3 would have the same drain with the fastest recharge. If you chain like Aux 2 Sif 3, FBP 2, and HE2, the initial drain would be less then or equal max drain with various recharge rates. So lets say all aux skills use -5 to aux so 3 abilities would only have a max drain of -15 but in actuality it would be less since you cannot activate said skills at the exact same time so after Aux to SIF is activated it is recharging as you hit FBP2 is activated you may be at -3 aux then you add the -5 from the FBP so on ans so forth. The thing it does makes it a penalty to activate numerous aux skills at once.

While this will effect sci ships, it does have a limited affect on cruisers also, and little to no effect on escorts.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
10-13-2010, 05:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VexusPrime
Problem: Balancing Cloak. Battle Cloak and Mask Energy Signature

Proposed Solution: Require a power drain.

Canon: as per Spock in TOS and confirmed numerous times elsewhere in Canon works, the problem of bending light (AKA cloaking) was the enormous power it required.

Discussion:

In PvP cloaking (Nebula or not) creates an incentive to remain out of the fight until your key abilities recharge. Things like RSP, Evasive Maneuvers and Batteries make Battle Cloak infinitely more effective. With the nerf to RSP this will only further BoP wait-fests that make for boring and lopsided PvP. Just to be clear, my Klink toon is in a BoP, and it's my favorite ship ... but without a cloaking solution, I fear for the vibrancy of the Klink faction--and for future Romulan PvP.

Regular Cloak and Mask Energy Signature are less problematic, but still unbalanced. There really is no counter for most players. You can't always pick your teammates, running 125 Aux truly gimps most playstyles, and forcing a ship (Nebula) or BOff choice (Mask Energy Signature to fight fire with fire) are klunky solutions.

I propose making a slow energy drain while cloaked. In 30 seconds of cloaking it would drain every system down to 25. Sure, you could have efficiencies to bring that back up and/or use the Emergency Powers skills to counteract it upon decloaking, and an EPS console or two to quicker recover the drained energy, but all of these things require using resources. Perhaps the numbers would need to be tweaked, but the goal would be to make cloaking most useful in extreme emergencies or in short intervals. Nobody likes waiting in an arena for a team of BoPs to fully recharge every BOff power before 5 seconds of alpha-strike combat followed by a made escape dash until Battle Cloak recharges and complete immunity allows forever to recharge and heal.

As difficult as it is to get consisten PvP games in STO, we don't need bore-fests where players leave the match mid-game from sheer boredom. And if you have seen the KvK queues lately, the who-will-uncloak-first waitfest is even more boring than FvK games.

The Nebula isn't and shouldn't be the only decent cloak detection. Random sensor scanning is Wasteful, boring, and captain-specific. Adding an canon-correct energy requirement would make the forever-cloaking borefests obsolete.

What are your thoughts on adding an energy drain requirement?
The cloaking device does indeed require a great deal of power, however since the shields do not function while the cloak is operational, the power from the shields is routed to the cloaking device (why do you think they drop the moment cloak is activated..).

Nerfing Klingons (and cloaking feds) further is not necessary, so no thanks.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
10-13-2010, 07:58 PM
Maybe it would just be better to take cloak away all together? The majority of players think that Klinks are overpowered so why not just remove them too? Worried about people cloak griefing? Who is to say they won't just fly across the map and decloak to get around it. My point is, there are always going to be some portion of players who want to do something to **** off the other side.

Gimping cloak is not the answer.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
10-13-2010, 10:36 PM
just add a danger of friendly collision death so feds cant ball up like they do, then the klingons wouldnt cloak all day because they could fight the feds without decloaking into instant death wihtout long cooldown buffs to prevent said instant death.
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